Posted on 01/05/2010 9:46:47 PM PST by the_conscience
I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?
I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?
Why do you continue to use the abandoned Baltimore Cathechsm, frought with misunderstandings, both yours and the author’s, when I already provided you with the link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the vatican site? Could it be that the Vatican site doesn’t substantiate your falsehoods and bitterness?
Why would I pick up on something I know not to be true???
That's the problem. You 'know' things that have no connection with reality. Reality, backed up by the CIA Factbook, the World Atlas and any number of sources that you care to name says that what you call Antioch is not in Syria, but in Turkey.
And I got news for ya...What is San Francisco was at one time in Mexico just as Antioch was in Syria...Yes, it sits on the Orentes river and has been referred to by that name but it also was called Antioch of Syria...
The penny drops. Very good. And it was the Syriac territory, not modern day Syria proper, and this territory, whether self ruled or conquered, varied hugely over the millennia. At one point, it covered all of modern day Israel, Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, and sizeable portions of Iraq, Turkey, Libya, Saudi Arabia, and almost all of Ethiopia.
I just can't believe the twists and turns you will go thru to try to look as being right...
When we debate, Iscool, I find it almost impossible to be wrong.
Truly you have abandoned some of your God-given gifts of discernment (reason, logic, common sense...).
When you are used to making it all up as you go along, anybody that says anything and calls it Catholic is justifiable to use to tar all of the Church of Jesus Christ.
Therefore you should call your fried potatoes "Freedom fries" instead of "French fries."
Unrelated? The scripture implicitly states no worship, praying, bowing, creating to ANYONE OR ANYTHING idolic.
How much clearer does God have to be?????
"should"? This is a free country. Go to church where you want, believe what you want. Defend your own dogma.
I don't recall any Catholic on FR telling the separated brethren that they MUST change to be Catholic. Frankly, there are a number of the protestants whom I hope NEVER convert, due to their personality problems. Thankfully, due to same, they likely never will. ;-D
You post excerpts from the first work and product of the Tradition of the Catholic Church (long since redacted by your wayward sects) and ignore the later works (the Catechism and Encyclicals) produced by the same Church and traditions guided by the same Holy Spirit. That is the hubris of selectivism and self worship.
Well incapacity COULD be one reason you don't understand what we say. But I don't really think that's it. I think it's unwillingness to entertain the notion that you might be wrong and unwillingnness to give anybody who disagrees with you a REAL and thoughtful hearing.
Since you ask nastily accuse me of thinking you are stupid.
Gee, with all these changes, who the heck knows which is right or wrong??? What happens when your "Catechism of the Catholic Church on the vatican site" changes it's mind???
Why would you choose to believe one errant priest instead of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the thousands of other priests and millions of practicing Catholics if not out of self gratification?
You really have no idea, do you? I might suggest that you try the Catechism, since we do not seem to be able to explain it here.
Baptism. In your sect, do think of baptism as the Holy Spirit descending upon an individual? If so, do you think that the person baptizing the other individual controls God? Does the validity of the baptism depend upon the baptizer's intent? If either is the case, then your statement about Catholicism really applies to the Calvinist instead.
You noted the silence and YOU suggested it was because somehow our side felt the preposterously claimed truth of your side. That was YOUR contention.
I invited you to consider that thee might be other reasons for people failing to engage at around 0800Zulu
Your side is so in the habit of taking things amiss that you answer that you are in a different time zone.
Well bless my soul! Gosh, it never occurred to me that people on FR might be in different time zones! Just as, evidently it didn't occur to you that, people being in different time zones and all, some of us might be going to bed. There was an opportunity for a cheap shot and somebody on your side took it. It's bizarre.
Fine. And we clearly and Explicitly state that our images of Mary and the saints, etc, are NOT "idolic." So we're cool. And I hope we're done.
But somehow I doubt it. Despite the Ecumenical Councils, despite the First council in Acts, despite the promise of the Holy Spirit to guide the Church into Truth, somehow I suspect that the Sola Scrumptious people are going to insist that we have to show that we're right despite their inability to show that we're wrong.
Thankyou Alamo-girl...I bookmarded the site...Going to take a bit to go thru that stuff...
Only North Carolina Barbecues...
Sola Scrumptious.
Darn, now I'm hungry.
I'd like you to go back to the OT and actually read what is there.
Exodus 25: 9 This Dwelling and all its furnishings you shall make exactly according to the pattern that I will now show you. 10 "You shall make an ark of acacia wood, two and a half cubits long, one and a half cubits wide, and one and a half cubits high. 11 Plate it inside and outside with pure gold, and put a molding of gold around the top of it. 12 Cast four gold rings and fasten them on the four supports of the ark, two rings on one side and two on the opposite side. 13 Then make poles of acacia wood and plate them with gold. 14 These poles you are to put through the rings on the sides of the ark, for carrying it; 15 they must remain in the rings of the ark and never be withdrawn.
16 In the ark you are to put the commandments which I will give you. 17 2 "You shall then make a propitiatory of pure gold, two cubits and a half long, and one and a half cubits wide. 18 3 Make two cherubim of beaten gold for the two ends of the propitiatory, 19 fastening them so that one cherub springs direct from each end. 20 The cherubim shall have their wings spread out above, covering the propitiatory with them; they shall be turned toward each other, but with their faces looking toward the propitiatory. 21 This propitiatory you shall then place on top of the ark. In the ark itself you are to put the commandments which I will give you. 22 There I will meet you and there, from above the propitiatory, between the two cherubim on the ark of the commandments, I will tell you all the commands that I wish you to give the Israelites.
23 "You shall also make a table of acacia wood, two cubits long, a cubit wide, and a cubit and a half high. 24 Plate it with pure gold and make a molding of gold around it. 25 4 Surround it with a frame, a handbreadth high, with a molding of gold around the frame. 26 You shall also make four rings of gold for it and fasten them at the four corners, one at each leg, 27 on two opposite sides of the frame as holders for the poles to carry the table. 28 These poles for carrying the table you shall make of acacia wood and plate with gold. 29 5 Of pure gold you shall make its plates and cups, as well as its pitchers and bowls for pouring libations.
30 On the table you shall always keep showbread set before me. 31 "You shall make a lampstand of pure beaten gold-its shaft and branches-with its cups and knobs and petals springing directly from it. 32 Six branches are to extend from the sides of the lampstand, three branches on one side, and three on the other. 33 6 On one branch there are to be three cups, shaped like almond blossoms, each with its knob and petals; on the opposite branch there are to be three cups, shaped like almond blossoms, each with its knob and petals; and so for the six branches that extend from the lampstand. 34 7 On the shaft there are to be four cups, shaped like almond blossoms, with their knobs and petals, 35 including a knob below each of the three pairs of branches that extend from the lampstand. 36 Their knobs and branches shall so spring from it that the whole will form but a single piece of pure beaten gold. 37 8 You shall then make seven lamps for it and so set up the lamps that they shed their light on the space in front of the lampstand. 38 9 These, as well as the trimming shears and trays, must be of pure gold. 39 Use a talent of pure gold for the lampstand and all its appurtenances. 40 See that you make them according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.
My Bible says that you are wrong here too. God not only commanded His Ark to be of a certain design and of gold, but He told them to make images of angels.
Exodus 26: 1 1 "The Dwelling itself you shall make out of sheets woven of fine linen twined and of violet, purple and scarlet yarn, with cherubim embroidered on them. 2 The length of each shall be twenty-eight cubits, and the width four cubits; all the sheets shall be of the same size. 3 Five of the sheets are to be sewed together, edge to edge; and the same for the other five. 4 Make loops of violet yarn along the edge of the end sheet in one set, and the same along the edge of the end sheet in the other set. 5 There are to be fifty loops along the edge of the end sheet in the first set, and fifty loops along the edge of the corresponding sheet in the second set, and so placed that the loops are directly opposite each other. 6 Then make fifty clasps of gold, with which to join the two sets of sheets, so that the Dwelling forms one whole.
Even the tent was adorned with graven images.
Numbers 21: 8 5 and the LORD said to Moses, "Make a saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover." 9 6 Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the bronze serpent, he recovered.
Oho. God told Moses to make a serpent on a pole and to use it on the people who had been bitten. Much has been redacted from your Bible, my friend. Further, please consider that God wrote the Commandments on stones, certainly graven and the golden calf was cast. Idolatry is in the intent and in the non adherence to God's commandments. St. Luke wrote the first icon. Do you condemn him?
Or the Old either. Rachel stole Laban's household idols when Jacob left to return home. Laban pursued to get them back, resulting in this: Rachel died before reaching home. Serious stuff.
Genesis 31:32 With whomsoever thou findest thy gods, let him not live: before our brethren discern thou what is thine with me, and take it to thee. For Jacob knew not that Rachel had stolen them.
Dr E didn’t make the article up.
It is listed here: http://www.catholic-pages.com/DIR/priesthood.asp
but is no longer available. The original article was published in 1998, so either time or error has resulted in the link not working.
It seems consistent with his statement:
“The Mass is a re-presentation now, in an unbloody manner, of the bloody sacrifice of the cross over nineteen hundred years ago. Since it is a re-offering of Jesus on Calvary, the Mass is rightly referred to as “the holy Sacrifice of the Mass”, although we do not hear this expression much today. It has been replaced with the more general and vague “liturgy”, which also applies to the celebration of the other sacraments.”
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0946.htm
Also see:
“Priests are made, not born. Although his discipleship must deepen during the course of his ministry, a man must be a thoroughly converted Christian disciple before he can be a priest. Discipleship is the prerequisite for priesthood. A Christian disciple is someone whose life is formed by the conviction that, in looking on the cross of Christ, one is looking at the central truth of human history: God’s love for the world, which was so great that God gave his son for its redemption. Convinced of that, a man ordained a priest becomes another Christ, an “alter Christus,” another witness to the truth that God intends for humanity a destiny beyond our imagining: eternal life within the light and love of the Holy Trinity.” - George Weigel
http://www.piercedhearts.org/jpii/george_weigel_articles/priests_icon_christ_weigel.htm
Also here:
As an alter Christus, the priest is profoundly united to the Word of the Father who, in becoming incarnate took the form of a servant, he became a servant (Phil 2: 5-11). The priest is a servant of Christ, in the sense that his existence, configured to Christ ontologically, acquires an essentially relational character: he is in Christ, for Christ and with Christ, at the service of humankind. Because he belongs to Christ, the priest is radically at the service of all people: he is the minister of their salvation, their happiness and their authentic liberation, developing, in this gradual assumption of Christ’s will, in prayer, in “being heart to heart” with him. Therefore this is the indispensable condition for every proclamation, which entails participation in the sacramental offering of the Eucharist and docile obedience to the Church.
Benedict XVI 06/24/2009
“At ordination, a priest becomes another person, commissioned not simply to act in the name of Christ, but to be another Christ, an alter Christus. This teaching was not an original insight of the Second Vatican Council. It is the traditional teaching of the Church. In this book, Father Connor helps the priest to see once again, in fresh terms, that this is truly the essence of the priesthood. He shows how, in the Eucharist the priest finds his raison d’être for being a priest, the source of all his strength in the ministry, the summit of all his prayers.”
a book review/promo:
http://www.albahouse.org/Meditations.htm
Or this:
The ALTER CHRISTUS FACTOR Why the Priest is the alter Christus in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass
http://www.dailycatholic.org/2004alt.htm
FWIW, I don’t have the patience to research to find out if any of these are fake Catholic sites.
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