Posted on 11/21/2009 4:02:44 PM PST by NYer
Peter wasn’t a Catholic.
“When that scripture was written, there was only one church - the Catholic Church. Hence, it applies to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.”
Oh, and not the Orthodox Church?
There was one Church. There still is. But Paul was
writing about the local Church’s role in truth. I
believe what he wrote was absolutely true - and not
more than that.
“The person who wrote the article is far from shallow. He was an Evangelical minister who graduated from one of the top US seminaries.”
I read your article. If he really wrote it, his understanding
of God’s Word is indeed shallow - regardless of which
seminary branded him. He should ask for a refund.
best,
ampu
You wrote:
“Seeing that it took Protestant lives burning at the stake to print the Bible in english and distribute it to the masses, one now wonders if the Word shows that the same Protestants should now convert to the Roman Catholic Church?”
1) No Protestant was ever burned at the stake by Catholics for printing Bibles and distributing them to the masses.
2) Catholics mass produced Bibles IN THE VERNACULAR NO LESS on the moveable type presses before Protestantism was even invented.
“Um...I’l pass. I grew up Catholic and it was the Protestant church that showed me what salvation was. The Catholic church only offered ritual.”
And if that is your belief, then it shows you never paid attention during any of those rituals.
“Then there was ....That ole Martin Luther...never read the New Testament until he was preparing for his Doctorate in Theology....not that church either...”
(sigh) Luther read the scriptures since he was a child as all literate children did.
1) Children in schools were taught scripture when they studied Latin.
2) He would have had to read all of scripture when he was an undergraduate and master’s student in theology to say the least.
3) As a cleric, and especially as a deacon, he would have read scripture at Mass.
This nutty idea you’re putting forward is based upon the false claims of Luther. You are apparently even mistating even those claims. If I am not mistaken, Luther claimed he saw his first Bible (perhaps meaning a one volume great Bible) when he was at Erfurt. He would have been age 20 and not studying for his doctorate.
And if you actually read the works of Luther himself, you would know that he claimed years later that he was given a Bible in his first year in the monastery - as a novice - and YEARS BEFORE HE STARTED HIS DOCTORAL WORK - and that was apparently standard practice to give a Bible to EVERY NOVICE.
Read Luther’s Works, volume 54 if you don’t believe me. That’s why the Lutherans admit: “Luther’s most intensive early exposure to the biblical text came after he was accepted as a novice by the Augustinian monastery in Erfurt, Germany. In a strict monastery life, the whole Psalter would be prayed in the course of every week. In penitential seasons Bible reading was a regular part of an Augustinian friar’s personal devotion. We know that as a novice, Luther enjoyed the rare luxury (for his time) of having a Bible just for his own.”
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3942/is_200510/ai_n15643227/?tag=untagged
Actually the church was completely Jewish at that time (except for a few gentiles who also recognized the Jewish messiah). The universal (or catholic) church and in particular the ROMAN catholic church did not begin until a few hundred years later.
I’m not going back.
Thanks for the ole college try.
You might be interested in this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale
You wrote:
“Actually the church was completely Jewish at that time (except for a few gentiles who also recognized the Jewish messiah). The universal (or catholic) church and in particular the ROMAN catholic church did not begin until a few hundred years later.”
Catholic Church. “Roman Catholic” is a term essentially invented by jealous Protestants in the 16th century. Christ founded the Catholic Church and that is our Church.
Geez, not this garbage again....
Catholics do not pray to Mary, Angels or Saints.....
They ask for intercession.....
That is for them (Mary et al) to pray for them on their behalf......
You wrote:
“I’m not going back.”
That’s ultimately between you and God.
“Thanks for the ole college try.”
I didn’t try anything nor will I. What I did do was accurately state the truth. Accept truth or believe your errors. The choice is yours - for all eternity.
“You might be interested in this:”
No, actually I wouldn’t be. I read several reputable biographies of Tyndale and they all admit the truth - he was not executed for his Bible translation. After that Tyndale’s story is largely unimportant in these matters. what you might want to ask yourself is, “why, if professional and reputable Protestant historians like David Daniell admit that Tyndale’s execution had nothing to do with his Bible, then why do anti-Catholics ignorantly insist or outright lie and say the opposite”?
“The Church!? Not the Bible? This alone sent my mind and essentially my whole life reeling...”
He sure panics easily! The Church is the “pillar and buttress of the truth”...but not truth itself. And what is truth? “Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.” - John 17
“Verses 16-17 were the texts I and others had always turned to buttress our belief in sola Scriptura, so to this I quickly turned my attention. Among many things, three important things became very clear, for the first time: (1) when Paul used the term “scripture” in this verse, he could only have meant when we call the Old Testament. The New Testament canon would not be established for another 300 years! (2) “All” scripture does not mean “only” scripture nor specifically what we have in our modern bibles. And (3), the emphasis in the context of this verse (vereses 14-15) is the trustworthiness of the oral tradition Timothy had received from his mother and others—not sola Scriptura!”
Why yes, Paul was specifically referring to the Old Testament, which he preached out of at every synagogue before he preached to Gentiles. Unless the writer believes the NT is NOT scripture, it applies to the NT as well. And Paul’s letters were also accepted as authoritative from the beginning. The oral teaching is what he also put in writing - even the Catholic Church doesn’t pretend there is a separate ‘sacred tradition’ passed down in whispers from Bishop to Bishop for 2000 years. That is NOT the meaning of ‘sacred tradition’! As Peter put it, “I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. 15And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.”
And notice what Paul told the Ephesian elders: “ I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.” The WHOLE counsel. He didn’t leave anything out - but Purgatory, Indulgences, Priests, Transubstantiation - not there!
And so it goes. I hate to break the news to this guy, but John Calvin wrote commentary on every one of these verses. They are NOT ones Protestants ignore, nor are the ones that Protestants come up with bizarre, unjustified interpretations of...we just don’t feel the need to synchronize our interpretations with 2000 years of developing ‘sacred tradition’, which makes our job much easier.
John 10:28-30
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I understood for the first time that by trusting in Jesus Christ as my savior, I could KNOW that I was going to heaven when I died. Not hope, wish, think, but know! I did not look back. I am not a Catholic, anymore, but a born-again, redeemed, sanctified child of God and a member of the universal (small "c" - catholic) body/church of Jesus Christ. Praise be to the Lord who is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.
It goes back to my other statement. Once the reformation took hold an equally corrupt anti-Catholic movement took form and it was just as bad as the one it was fighting.
This only proves that neither side had Yeshua as their guide, it was all about power and politics.
So ask yourself. Why are priests celebate? They weren’t always?
Why the huge push to make Mary the co-redemptrix? Please don’t tell me that is dead or over hyped.
What about medjordge? (sp) countless apparitions, it’s like voodoo lite.
There are many things that the Catholic church does very very well and I applaud it, there are many things they do miserably.
I just refute and refuse with every fiber in my Holy Ghost indwelt Spirit to ever acknowledge that the Catholic Church is Truth....NO SIR
Truth is Jesus the Christ.
again, God Bless.
Let’s celebrate in heaven.
I’m sorry you were led astray. Christ is waiting for you to come back.
- Jesus Christ
Prayers to Mary, or even prayers from Mary won't help; Jesus is the only way. He said it, not me.
There was no other church. The church existed before the Bible.
Your own Catechism says you do not even need to know the words of Christ to be saved; why should you consider him “led astray”, or wait for him to “come back”? According to your own infallible teachings (the Catechism), Christ and His words are not needed for salvation. Thus neither is the Church.
Does it include non-Catholic (i.e.: those who do not acknowledge the spiritual leadership of the Bishop of Rome, the Pope) christian churches?
So when Jesus read from Isaiah 60 in the temple (before his crucifixion).......?
A wonderful testimony - thank you! And God bless you!!!
(your Protestant sister in Jesus Christ)
You should preface your every post this honestly.
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