Posted on 11/21/2009 4:02:44 PM PST by NYer
One of the more commonly shared experiences of Protestant converts to the Catholic Church is the discovery of verses “we never saw.” Even after years of studying, preaching, and teaching the Bible, sometimes from cover to cover, all of a sudden a verse “we never saw” appears as if by magic and becomes an “Aha!” mind-opening, life-altering messenger of spiritual “doom”! Sometimes it’s just recognizing an alternate, clearer meaning of a familiar verse, but often, as with some of the verses mentioned below, it literally seems as if some Catholic had snuck in during the night and somehow put that verse there in the text!
The list of these surprise verses is endless, depending especially on a convert’s former religious tradition, but the following are a few key verses that turned my heart toward home. This article is a reprint from the topic I covered on the July 31, 2006 broadcast of The Journey Home on EWTN.
1. Proverbs 3:5-6
Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not rely on your own insight. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.
Ever since my adult re-awakening (read “born-again experience”) at age 21, this Proverb has been my “life verse.” It rang true as a guide for all aspects of my life and ministry, but then during my nine years as a Presbyterian minister, I became desperately frustrated by the confusion of Protestantism. I loved Jesus and believed that the Word of God was the one trustworthy, infallible rule of faith. But so did lots of the non-Presbyterian ministers and laymen I knew: Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Congregationalists, etc., etc., etc . . . The problem was that we all came up with different conclusions, sometimes radically different, from the same verses. How does one “trust in the Lord with all your heart”? How can you make sure your not “leaning on your own understanding”? We all had different opinions and lists of requirements. A verse I had always trusted suddenly became nebulous, immeasurable, and unreachable.
2. 1 Timothy 3: 14-15
I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
Scott Hahn pulled this one on me. “So, Marc, what is the pillar and foundation of truth?” I answered, “The Bible, of course.” “Oh yeah? But what does the Bible say?” “What do you mean?” When he told me to look up this verse, I suspected nothing. I had taught and preached through First Timothy many times. But when I read this verse, it was as if it had suddenly appeared from nowhere, and my jaw dropped. The Church!? Not the Bible? This alone sent my mind and essentially my whole life reeling; the question of which Church was one I was not ready to broach.
3. 2 Timothy 3:14-17
But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Verses 16-17 were the texts I and others had always turned to buttress our belief in sola Scriptura, so to this I quickly turned my attention. Among many things, three important things became very clear, for the first time: (1) when Paul used the term “scripture” in this verse, he could only have meant when we call the Old Testament. The New Testament canon would not be established for another 300 years! (2) “All” scripture does not mean “only” scripture nor specifically what we have in our modern bibles. And (3), the emphasis in the context of this verse (vereses 14-15) is the trustworthiness of the oral tradition Timothy had received from his mother and others—not sola Scriptura!
4. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
This was another “too-hot-to-handle” verse Scott threw in my lap. The traditions (Dare I say, traditions) that these early Christian were to hold fast to were not just the written letters and Gospels that would eventually make up the New Testament, but the oral tradition. And even more significant, the context of Paul’s letters indicates that his normal, preferred way of passing along “what he had received” was orally; his written letters were an accidental, sometimes unplanned add-on, dealing with immediate problems—leaving unsaid so much of what they had learned through oral teaching.
5. Matthew 16:13-19
Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare’a Philip’pi, he asked his disciples, “Who do men say that the Son of man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli’jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
There is so much to discuss in this verse, so much I never saw. I always knew that Catholics used this to argue Petrine authority but I wasn’t convinced. To the naively ignorant, the English words “Peter” and “rock” are so different that it’s obvious that Jesus was referring to the faith Simon Peter received as a gift from the Father. For the more informed seminary educated Bible students, like myself, I knew that behind the English was the Greek, where one discovered that Peter is the translation of petros, meaning little pebble, and rock is the translation of petra, large boulder. Again an obvious disconnect, so so for years I believed and taught specifically against Petrine authority. Then, through the reading of Karl Keating’s wonderful book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism, I realized the implications of something I knew all along: behind the Greek was the Aramaic which Jesus originally spoke, in which the word for Peter and rock are identical—kepha. Once I saw that Jesus had said essentially “You are kepha and on this kepha I will build my Church,” I knew I was in trouble.
6. Revelation 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth." "Blessed indeed," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!"
For years, as a Calvinist preacher, I recited this verse in every funeral graveside service. I believed and taught sola fide and discounting any place for works in the process of our salvation. But then, after my last funeral service as a minister, a family member of the deceased cornered me. He asked, with a tremble in his voice, “What did you mean that Bill’s deeds follow him?” I don’t remember my response, but this was the first time I became aware of what I had been saying. This began a long study on what the New Testament and then the Early Church Fathers taught about the mysterious but necessary synergistic connection between our faith and our works.
7. Romans 10:14-15
But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? And how can men preach unless they are sent?
I had always used these verses to defend the central importance of preaching and why I, therefore, had given up my engineering career for seminary and the great privilege of becoming a preacher of the Gospel! And I was never bothered by the last phrase about the need of being “sent,” because I could point to my ordination where a cackle of local ministers, elders, deacons, and laymen laid their hands on my sweaty head to send me forth in the Name of Jesus. But then, first through my reading of the history and writings of the Early Church Fathers and second through my re-reading of the scriptural context of Paul’s letters, I realized that Paul emphasized the necessity of being “sent” because the occasion of his letters was to combat the negative, heretical influences of self-appointed false teachers. I had never thought of myself as a false teacher, but by what authority did those people send me forth? Who sent them? In this I realized the importance of Apostolic [those who have been sent] succession.
8. John 15:4 and 6:56
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
The book of the Bible I most preached on was the Gospel of John and my most preached on section John 15, the analogy of the vine and the branches. I bombarded my congregations with the need to “abide” or “remain” in Christ. But what does this mean? I always had an answer, but when I saw “for the first time” the only verse where Jesus himself defines clearly what we must do to abide in Him, I was floored. “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him.” This led me to study a boatload of verses in John 6 “I had never seen before,” and in the end, when it came accepting Jesus at His word on the Eucharist, I had only one answer: “Where else can we go? Only you have the words of life.”
9. Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church.
I don’t know if I purposely avoided this or just blindly missed it, but for the first 40-years of my life I never saw this verse. And to be honest, when I finally saw it, I still didn’t know what to do with it. Nothing in my Lutheran, Congregationalist, or Presbyterian backgrounds helped me understand how I or anyone could rejoice in suffering, and especially why anything was needed to complete the suffering of Christ: nothing was lacking! Christ’s suffering, death, and resurrection were sufficient and complete! To say anything less was to attack the omnipotent completeness of God’s sovereign grace. But then again, this was the apostle Paul speaking in inerrant, infallible Scripture. And we were to imitate him as he imitated Jesus. It took a reading of Pope John Paul II’s encyclical on the meaning of suffering to open my eyes to the beautiful mystery of redemptive suffering.
10. Luke 1:46-49
“And Mary said, ‘My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.’”
Finally the hardest hurdle for so many Protestant converts to get over: our Blessed Mother Mary. For most of my life, the only place Mary came into the picture was at Christmas—and dare I say, as a statue! But I never referred to her as “blessed.” Yet Scripture says all generations will call her blessed. Why wasn’t I? This led me to see other verses for the first time, including John 17 where from the cross Jesus giave his mother into the keeping of John, rather than any supposed siblings, and by grace I began, in imitation of my Lord and Savior and eternal brother Jesus, to recognize her, too, as my loving Mother.
You wrote:
“Why the “hair-trigger” offense button? Sorry you don’t like me using the words “insult God”, but that is what one does when one contradicts God’s word.”
I’ve never done that.
“Do you deny you said suffering is a punishment for sin?”
Nope. And that doesn’t contradict God’s word either.
“Do you deny you said: We still suffer in this life and it is because of sin. Yes, God disciplines us. And discipline requires punishment and suffering.?”
No. There’s no reason why I should deny it either.
“I, in no way, made up what you said. I copied it verbatim.”
(sigh). No. This is what you posted that I said you made up: “You insult God to propose that his chastisement/discipline of his children is no different than that experienced by the world in general.”
Now, I NEVER, EVER SAID, God’s “chastisement/discipline of his children is no different than that experienced by the world in general.”
I defy you to show me where I ever said that God’s “chastisement/discipline of his children is no different than that experienced by the world in general.”
I never said it. I never even said anything approaching it.
“The “semantics” part I added attempted to give you an “out” in case we were really meaning the same thing just not using the same words, but I guess, that’s out the door.”
I need no ‘out’. Since I never once even said anything remotely close to what you falsely claimed, the ‘out’ is need by you. I won’t give you. Show me where I ever said, God’s “chastisement/discipline of his children is no different than that experienced by the world in general.”
Post it.
“Do you actually think “we” (children of God) receive suffering as a “punishment” for our sins? That is the jist of my entire argument.”
We recieve punishment. To deny that we do is to deny what everyone knows - we suffer.
“Romans 6:23 says, For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Right. And where in that do you see that we don’t suffer for our sins in this lifetime?
“The payment, wages, of sin is death - not suffering.”
Wages are what you get at the end of the day. In the meantime we deal with suffering.
“Jesus Christ paid the wages of sin with his death on the cross. His resurrection from the dead proves the payment has been accepted once and for all.”
He paid the ultimate ransom for our wages. And in the meantime we deal with suffering in this world.
“All the suffering of the entire world, past, present or future cannot begin to pay the price of sin.”
Right. And no one here is claiming otherwise. Is this another case where you’re going to claim someone said something he never said?
“The offense of sin is against God - not the universe - and only God can forgive the offense of sin. Only God can grant total absolution from the penalty of sin - death. I don’t know how much clearer to say it.”
And in the meantime we deal with suffering in this life. I don’t know how much more obvious it could be.
“If you believe in the gift of salvation by grace through faith, then you can’t also believe that we must continue to suffer punishment FOR our sin.”
I believe we are saved by grace. I also believe we suffer in this life. The two are completely compatible.
“Suffering in a Christian’s life serves an entirely different purpose.”
It does. And part of discipline is suffering. And we do.
That passage means this: wages are due. Actions are due. Abraham was circumcised after he believed because actions are due. Abraham was faithful and that is why his actions were acts of faith. Your passage only illustrates my point further. Faith is essential, but must be acted upon, as Abraham did by becoming circumcised, offering to sacrifice his son, living as God wished.
And don’t forget the Old Testament is an old understanding of God’s wishes. Christ came to enlighten us about what God wanted from us. Search the New Testament for what Christ and the Apostles said about actions/works. There are so many!
If you choose to use Paul’s interpretation of Abraham to prove your point, aren’t you saying you’d rather believe Paul’s interpretation of the Scripture than what Christ actually said? Christ made it pretty clear in his words and parables that works were an important part of faith.
We are in complete agreement,dear brother.
Sufferings are for others,not ourselves.we accept suffering as the will of God for others in complete denial of self
“It is as impossible to separate works from faith as burning and shining from fire.”
This we can both agree on.
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
Actually, according to that, you know that Bill Gates is not saved, and actually neither am I as I refuse to be a part of the Catholic Church.
Do you deny that the Catholic Church teaches that a person that hears the gospel and rejects it will still be saved?
Wrong!
We pray for the souls in purgatory and offer our SELVES for them out of love.
Such love is unconditional love for the good of others and denial of self
bumpus ad summum
The Catholic Church teaches that only God is our judge. We teach that certain sins and circumstances put one in jeopardy of eternal damnation. Mortal sins put your soul into a condition that may make it impossible for you to be accepted into heaven. However, only God, who knows every fiber of your being, can sift the mercy and blame in judgment.
The Church does not condemn people, only actions. We leave it up to God to judge and we refrain from judging others. As the passage you quoted from the Catechism says, if you truly and absolutely know in your heart that the Catholic Church is the one, true Church founded by Christ and you deliberately turn your back on it, you would be, in essence, turning your back on Christ and you would risk your salvation. That is why Catholics are so sad to hear that some of us make the choice to leave the Church.
Still, only God will be the judge of all the circumstances that caused a person to leave the one, true Church. He will determine the level of understanding the person had when they were making that decision. He will know the level of commitment and spirituality of that individual soul and judge accordingly. We believe God is not only just, but merciful. The balance between the two is God’s alone to know. We do not know everything about the mind of God. Faith is a gift and the gifts of the Spirit are meted out individually according to God’s plan. Some people do not receive the gift of discernment. Is that their fault?
We do not know if Bill Gates, you, me, a pagan, an aborted baby, or Hitler will definitely be saved. But we do know that at the moment of judgment, God will sift each soul fairly and mercifully at the same time. I personally think that God will not reject aborted babies, pagans who never had the opportunity to hear a good argument for believing in Christ, or the mentally ill. There could also be scenarios in which a person heard the Gospel and lived a bad life, but in the last moment of his life he sacrificed himself to save an innocent person (”Greater love hath no man than to give up his life for another.”) and God might value that moment of supreme love and goodness more than anything else. We don’t know.
We do know the Good Shepherd searches for each soul until the very last moment and is watching and waiting for the lost sheep with love and anxiety. We know that if we turn to Christ with our last breath, He will be there holding out His arms to us in acceptance. If Bill Gates, you, I, or Hitler do that, how can we know what God will do? Remember, there are many rooms in Heaven.
Christ is the doorway to Heaven. It is a source of concern to Catholics that many Protestants see being “saved” as such a black and white issue. All things are possible with God— even loving, undeserved mercy. Christ was merciful and understanding, many times, to those no one thought deserved it. He delighted in loving the most hated, most reviled, most public sinners.
All these reasons are why the Catholic Church says we do not judge; only God can judge each individual. We leave it to Him. I hope I answered your question.
Christ Himself made it a black and white issue. "No man comes to the Father BUT THROUGH ME". That's pretty exclusive, isn't it? There is Christ and NO OTHER WAY. Period. That is black and white. Do you mean there is another way, other than Christ?
Can you work your way into Heaven? If yes, then Christ is not the only way. If no, then Christ is the only way. It's pretty black-and-white.
What does the Catholic Church teach? See Catechism 846. Your contention that you do not judge is counter to the foundational documents of your own Church, for 846 is quite explicit: if you leave the Catholic Church you are not saved, and if you do not have faith in Christ you are not saved.
That seems pretty black and white to me. The fact that most Catholics are uncomfortable with that shows just how far most Catholics have compromised the message of Christ and their own Church's teachings, in the name of "being inclusive".
Here's the dirty little secret: Christianity is quite exclusionary! There is but a single way to salvation: faith in Jesus Christ. That's the point, that's the fundamental teaching, that's the key. It's extremely exclusionary. And if you try to water it down, you are literally denying the words of Christ and the teachings of the Bible - you are not Christian.
All these reasons are why the Catholic Church says we do not judge; only God can judge each individual. We leave it to Him. I hope I answered your question.
Funny, Catholics have no problem judging all protestants, telling us that you hope we'll recognize our errors, "come home to the Church" and the like. See the references in this very thread! You determine that we Christians who are not Catholic are fallen and in error, but oh no - you don't judge!
No, you don't judge, and thus you make yourself irrelevant. Live and let live, eh? Sorry, the Buddhists beat you to that philosophy (by about 550 years) and do it a lot better. But when someone came along and pointed out the fallacies and evil within your Church, you were all about condemnation and judgment then. And when someone worships Christ in a way you don't like, or in a church outside your own perfumed halls, why, they're lost and need to be saved and see the light.
Hypocrisy, thou art Catholic.
Here's a question for you: will I be saved? Answer truthfully, please. Will I be saved? I can tell you that I was raised Catholic, chose to be a protestant who worships in a Free Methodist church. Will I be saved?
I have heard that many times and in almost every case, the person claiming that they are asking for intercession is unaware of two facts
1) The official Catholic doctrine as expressed through the Catechisms (2675, 2676, and 2679) establish pray to Mary as an official doctrine of the church.
2) Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.”
Ya’ want to take a shot at post 150?
I’m tired of the constant redo of what intercession means....
Don’t worry, they won’t judge us, unless of course we’re not Catholic, then we’re to be judged, sentenced, and proclaimed lost and wrong!
The reason Patrick Kennedy’s Communion denial was news was because, finally, someone in the Catholic Church actually stood up for what they’ve been preaching for hundreds of years. Being Catholic has always been, for the most part, a Sunday only thing. You go to Mass for 45 minutes and you’re done, it’s not supposed to intrude on the rest of your life. You live how you want, and if that’s opposite what the Church or the Bible teaches, that’s OK - they don’t judge.
I’m really interested to see what Melian - or any of the other Catholic apologists (actually, to be more correct, I should say protestant antagonists) will say about post 149. The gauntlet has been thrown down, will come out and acknowledge their black-and-white nature (which, supposedly, they abhor) or deny it and thus deny the Bible as well as their own Catechism?
Catholics are the equivalent of the squishy “moderates” that Rush talks about. They wait for the trend to be set then say “me too!” Principles exist whether we acknowledge them or not; it takes courage and integrity to hold to principles in the face of attack. It’s a shame our misguided Catholic brothers and sisters do not recognize that! And because they do not recognize that, a majority of them voted for Obama, and gave us the decadence we have with the new Administration...
But at least they don’t judge!
My friend, you have misunderstood the passage. In fact, He allows it - recall that Moses and Elijah appeared with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is the necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).
God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
The official Catholic doctrine as expressed through the Catechisms (2675, 2676, and 2679) establish pray to Mary as an official doctrine of the church.
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.
In Psalm 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalm 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2) Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
Because he is the only God-man, Jesus is the only Mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1-4), including those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).
Here is my reply to your question, “Will I be saved?”
If you were raised Catholic, you were told from the time you were a child that it is the one, true Church with the fullness of the faith. If you know in your heart that the Catholic Church IS the true Church of Christ, and you walk away for any reason, then you are in danger of losing your salvation. You are walking away from the Truth of Christ. If you know Christ’s will for you and you intentionally say no to it, that is sin.
If you were raised as a Catholic and left, NOT because of self-centeredness, weakness, laziness, loneliness, poor teaching or example, unwillingness to follow the Teaching because it was just too hard, or peer pressure, but because you HONESTLY don’t believe the Catholic Church is the one, holy, apostolic, and universal Church founded by Christ; there is hope.
Most people leave for the reasons stated above; Catholicism is a very tough religion and many people can’t cut it. They bolt the first time they are told “no” by a priest or have a bad experience in Confession or divorce and want to remarry or just get lazy and don’t put any effort into growing their souls.
The passage from the Catechism you cited clearly is explicit that if you KNOW you are walking away from Christ’s true Church, and you deliberately do it anyway, you will be held accountable.
Sin is black and white. Intentionally choosing to do what you know is wrong when you are in complete possession of the facts, is sin. Only you, PugetSoundSoldier, and God know what you know about the Catholic Church in your heart of hearts. It would be easy to say you are not saved, just as it’s easy to say, “I believe in Jesus, therefore, I am saved.” But Catholics don’t do that. Jesus is the doorway to salvation. He is the WAY but we must walk rightly through that portal and continue to take up our cross and follow Him.
Simply entering the gate does not mean you completed the journey of salvation correctly. We see this in backsliders who accept Christ and believe in Him completely but slip into their old bad habits despite their belief. Are they damned for their actions though they believe? Is someone who believes in Christ as God but who chooses to commit horrible murders right up until his death saved? There are grey areas that only God could sort out. Christ alone sits in judgment.
Christianity is exclusionary if we permit ourselves to judge others; something Christ warned us not to do. I believe God is Love and that, with Love, all things are possible. I believe that each of us must rely on God’s abiding mercy and, like the great St. Paul, I work on my salvation in fear and trembling.
Catholics do not make themselves irrelevant by not judging; our mission is to spread the Truth of the Good News of Christ. This we try to do. Yes, we sorrow over those seeds that fell on the good soil of the Church and yet were snatched by birds or simply withered away. Yes, we want all Catholics to come home to what we know is the one, true Church. Yes, we fight for that as Christ asked us to do. Yes, we want to share our deep love of Christ’s Church.
And yes, we sometimes grow tired or upset when untruths are spread about the Church or someone refuses to examine what we say fairly. We are not perfect. Neither was St. Peter!
If you left the Church for any other reason than because you honestly don’t believe it is the Church started by Christ and guided by Him, I invite you to do a self study about why you left. If you would like to talk to someone about the hurts or injustices members of the Church have inflicted upon you, I will help you find someone you can talk to about it.
There is so much emotion in your posts about, and to, Catholics. I would venture to guess that indicates someone in pain over aspects of his decision. If, as you say, you were raised Catholic, I am surprised by some of your statements and what you don’t seem to know about the Church. As the Catholics on FR continue to discuss what we believe, it may be creating cognitive dissonance for you. That is a painful state of mind and often results in anger.
Finally, let me say that I know the Catholic Church members are not perfect. In fact, I have been deeply hurt in a situation by my parish leadership. It affected me so deeply that I could not go to Mass without crying for years. It began a period of spiritual dryness. Twelve years later, it still affects me. But I still believe in Christ’s words, His Church, and the miracle of the sacraments, especially the Eucharist. I still believe the Catholic Church has the fullest understanding of faith and God’s requirements of us. I still think, “Lord, to whom would I go?” The Catholic Church has ALL the words of eternal life.
Thank you for the clarity!
So, short answer - I’m not saved. Because I reject the Catholic Church.
I thought you people weren’t judgmental?
If you reject the Catholic Church, knowing and understanding that it IS the one true Church of Christ, you would be rejecting Christ’s will, His creation, and His most sacred gift, wouldn’t you?
I think God would take that very seriously. Even then, I don’t say you aren’t “saved,” because I believe God favors loving actions above all. I think one who knowingly rejects God’s will is committing a sin— and sin puts one in jeopardy of Hell. I think one who lives a very Christian life but who had knowingly rejected what he understood to be Christ’s Church, would probably go to Purgatory for a spell, but would eventually attain Heaven. So fear not! You ARE saved!
If you would ever like to talk to anyone about all this hostility for the Church, let me know and I will put you in touch with someone nice.
I accept the Catholic Church as one of the churches in the entire body of Christ; it is not the one true Church, any more than Eastern Orthodox (which actually predates the Catholic Church), or Lutheranism.
But that's heretical to the Catholic Church, and thus earns me that non-judgmental trip to Hell. Even though you are non-judgmental, right?
If you would ever like to talk to anyone about all this hostility for the Church, let me know and I will put you in touch with someone nice.
No need, I have family (by marriage) who not only work in the Catholic Church but are ordained priests. I know Catholic theology (12 years of Catholic education), and I know that it has a lot of problems, but I also know my own church has lots of problems, too. They're institutions of men. They are fallible.
Only Catholics who venerate their church and hold it infallible are wrong. But you cannot accept that, so you will go about your non-judgmental condemnation of all others. And the hypocrisy will never be seen because you'll keep your eyes closed...
No, I believe Christ is still guiding His Church through the Holy Spirit, as He promised He would. I believe that the Church is infallible when a pronouncement is made from the Chair of St. Peter.
I am very surprised you had 12 years of Catholic education when I hear some of the things you say about the Church. Perhaps it is time to examine it through the eyes of an adult with an adult’s intellect and understanding? Is it possible you misunderstood some things? I know my own daughter, who also had 12 years of Catholic education, was mistaken in her understanding of what a mortal sin is! These days, Catholic education is not what it used to be! Maybe it would help to approach your own history with an objective mind and with someone who will answer your questions without evangelizing or judging you. I am sorry if a Catholic judged you. St. Francis says, “Preach the Gospel at all times and, when necessary, use words.”
Patrick Madrid has some wonderful books that are very scholarly. You can’t go wrong with reading him.
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