Posted on 09/13/2009 11:48:38 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
(This is an update of a study I first posted in Nov. 2003)
Those who labor to understand the nuances of the battle described in Ezekiel 38-39 quickly identify two major puzzles. One is the timing of the battle and the other is the identity of Gog, from Magog. Suffice it to say here that almost no scholar, certainly none I’m aware of, believes the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 has already taken place. Some believe it will occur just before the beginning of Daniel’s 70th Week, while others believe Ezekiel is actually describing the Battle of Armageddon, which would put it at the end of the Great Tribulation. But all place it sometime in our future.
In my opinion, there are several reasons why Ezekiel 38 can’t be part of the Armageddon scenario. First, only some nations are involved in Ezekiel 38. For example, Saudi Arabia and Western Europe are said to be on the sidelines observing and others you would expect to see, like Egypt and Jordan, are not mentioned at all, although both appear later on. But Zechariah 12:3 says that in preparation for the Battle of Armageddon all the nations of the Earth will come against Jerusalem.
Second, how is Israel going to burn the left over weapons for 7 years as Ezekiel 39:9 indicates unless there are 7 years left in which to burn them? Rev. 21:24. says the nations will walk by the light of the New Jerusalem in the Millennium, so they won’t need fuel for energy then. And then you have Ezekiel 38:11 telling us that Israel will be a peaceful and unsuspecting people when the Moslem coalition strikes. Could that be possible near the end of the Great Tribulation when all the nations are gathering to attack? I don’t think so.
But most importantly, Daniel’s 70th week can’t start until Israel is back in covenant with God and the battle of Ezekiel 38 is what causes the covenant to be re-instated. (Ezek. 39:22) Armageddon comes at the end of Daniel’s 70th week, not the beginning.
As for Gog and Magog, the first thing to note is that while Magog is listed in Genesis 10, Gog is not. The list of 70 names in Genesis 10 is often called the Table of Nations because each of the men named there was the original ancestor of an ethnic group that grew to become a nation of people. For instance, Magog was the 2nd son of Japeth, one of Noah’s three sons, and bore the children who in time became known to the ancient world as the Scythians. They lived in central Asia and are believed to be the forefathers of today’s Russians. Many historical references support this view. For example, Josephus Flavius wrote “Magog founded the Magogians, thus named after him, but who were by the Greeks called Scythians.” And in some ancient Arabic documents, the Great Wall of China is called the Ramparts of Gog and Magog. It was built to keep the Scythians out of China.
So while the Russian people of today are likely descended from Magog, there is no such biological connection for Gog to either Magog or any other ethnic group. There is an unrelated mention of a man named Gog, a grandson of Reuben, in 1 Chronicles 5:4 but there doesn’t seem to be any connection between him and the land of Magog either. Clearly, while Magog refers to the millions of his descendants in today’s Russia, Gog remains a single individual.
Some say he’s a king or leader, and in a real sense I think that’s true but I don’t believe he’s of the human variety. The time spanned by his three appearances in scripture make that impossible.
The first one is in the first verse of Amos 7, but you have to be reading Amos from the Septuigent translation to see it. There, Gog is identified as a king, but of a swarm of locusts. To further shroud him in mystery Proverbs 30:27 states that locusts have no king, and observers of locust swarms agree that no obvious leader directs them, as a queen would direct a hive of bees for example. The swarm of locusts led by Gog in Amos 7:1-2 was symbolic of a judgment that was to come upon the Northern Kingdom, but the Lord relented because of Amos’ intercession.
(This hint also lends insight to another appearance of locusts, by the way. I’m referring to the one in Revelation 9, where a swarm of locusts comes out of the Abyss to afflict those on Earth who lack the seal of God on their foreheads. These locusts have a king named Abaddon in the Hebrew or Appolyon in the Greek. Here again, the Proverbs passage would indicate that these locusts are of supernatural origin like the ones in Amos 7, not ordinary locusts.)
The next time Gog’s mentioned is in Ezekiel 38:1, where he is called by name as the leader of a coalition of what are now primarily Moslem nations attacking Israel. His final mention comes from the Book of Revelation where he again leads the people from Magog against the Lord’s army at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:8).
Even if you’re among those who place the battle of Ezekiel 38 at the end of the Great Tribulation, the span of time between Gog’s last two biblical appearances is at least 1000 years, and while I believe that some born in that era will have long life spans, there isn’t any indication that natural humans born before the Millennium begins will live to see its end. This is especially true of God’s enemies, since all surviving unbelievers are removed from Earth at the beginning of our Lord’s reign.
So I’ve come to the conclusion that Gog is a supernatural figure. The Bible clearly states that behind the human seats of government stand supernatural figures manipulating the thoughts and actions of the world’s leaders. These figures are in Satan’s employ, helping in his effort to wrest ownership of Planet Earth from its Creator. Gog is at least the supernatural figure behind the throne of Russia, and perhaps is even Satan’s counterpart to the Archangel Michael, who commands the Lord’s armies.
In Daniel 10:13 Michael is identified as one of the Lord’s chief princes who in 536 BC came to Daniel’s aid in a supernatural struggle with the Prince of Persia, a nation barely emerging on the world scene having conquered Babylon just three years earlier. At its conclusion Michael told Daniel that he’d soon be battling the Prince of Greece, a nation that didn’t even exist at the time. In Daniel 12:1 we’re told he’ll protect Israel at the end of the age. And in Rev 12:7 he’s seen leading the angelic host in a great battle in heaven when Satan is defeated there and cast down to Earth at the outset of the Great Tribulation. Michael is clearly a supernatural warrior leaping across the pages of history in defense of the Lord’s interests. It makes sense that Satan would have a military commander leading his forces as well, since everything he does seems to mirror the actions of his Creator. With his multiple mentions in Scripture and the long span of time between appearances, Gog could easily be this commander.
Only time will tell if this view is correct. But one of the great advantages of living in our day is that we won’t have long to wait till we find out. You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. 09-12-09
AMEN AMEN AMEN
HAPPY TO AGREE IN PRAYER WITH YOUR ADDITION.
LORD, PLEASE CHANGE SUCH PRETERISTS, REPLACEMENTARIANS, A-MILS, POST-MILS, et al TO SEE THE TRUTH MIRACULOUSLY BY YOUR SPIRIT. . . OR . . . MOVE THEM OUT OF THE WAY OR . . . OTHERWISE NEUTRALIZE THEIR DESTRUCTIVENES, BY WHATEVER MEANS IT TAKES, LORD . . . IN JESUS’ NAME.
I am in agreement with you in this prayer. I add for the LORD to use whatever means necessary to reach those who will choose Him. May no weapon formed against the children of the Most High prosper in the name of Messiah Yahshua! May what the enemy has meant for evil be returned to its source and that the Father of Lights receive all glory.
THANKS MUCH.
I will be glad to join you, Quix.
PRAISE GOD.
THANKS THANKS.
I’m praying with you, Quix!
Father remove the scales of deception!! May Your truth be known and accepted to those with willing hearts, free from influence by the evil one!!
Bless those who sincerely pray!! Amen!
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Genesis 6:1-7 Describes the 'reason' for the flood, which is to be again (has not happened yet). Genesis 6:8-10 Says why Noah found grace; Genesis 6-7 tells us the instructions God gave to Noah to build and fill the ark.
Genesis 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw the he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought for the man child. (14)And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a *flood* after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
This flood is lies - deception that Christ said would be in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 Let no 'man' deceived you.
16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. (lies false religion)
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
(Having the testimony of Jesus Christ, identifies who the woman represents, the church.)
Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are Christ describing in His words the seal, trumps and vials. And the 6th seal, 6th trump, and 6th vial identify the 666 that is marked into the minds and on the workforce of the religious 'order' of the beast system. The one that gets dumped down here on this earth pretending to be Jesus and the whole world will 'believe' except for those elect.
There are prophecies given in months and then there are prophecies given in days. Both happen but are the positive and the negative of these end times.
Revelation 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
How does a scorpion take its prey? They inject their poison into the prey and that prey becomes their stomach after the poison dissolves the mind and spine into mush. That flood of lies and deception.
And Lord, I bind away from them the mind-blinding spirit that would prevent them from seeing YOUR truth. Cover them with the blood of Christ, that no lie can touch them. Take the scales off their eyes, in Jesus’ Name.
Boatbums back in the FR world! I join you in the prayer for the Lord to open the eyes of those who WILL NOT see, unstop the ears of those who WILL NOT hear and bring to their hearts an understanding of God’s word as he intends it to be understood. That God’s word is true and will NEVER pass away!. Amen and amen.
Are you saying Israel is not referred to as the "fig tree"? Look up these verses: Jeremiah 24:1-10; Hosea 9:10; Micah 4; Joel 1:7.
Amen to that. It seems the news is full of all sorts of amazing new devices on the market. I also remember Bush giving a speech not long ago about how astounding all the new discoveries will be. Theres no telling what sort of robotic stuff they will unleash.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
THANKS THANKS.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
THANKS THANKS.
INDEED!
YUP
Here are some verses to chew on:
Revelation 7:3-5 (New King James Version) 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
Revelation 7:17 (New King James Version) 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters.[a] And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
Revelation 14:1-5 (New King James Version) Revelation 14 The Lamb and the 144,000 1 Then I looked, and behold, a[a] Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having[b] His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed[c] from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit,[d] for they are without fault before the throne of God.[e]
Revelation 17:14 (New King James Version) 14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”
In the New Jerusalem also:
Revelation 21:12 (New King James Version) 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
"Mountains" in prophecy generally mean "nations" or "countries"...
What does it mean when God calls for a sword in all of His "mountains"?
As to your remarks regarding the "fig tree", I can certainly address them, though I don't really want to skew this thread too much.
It is true that Judah's destiny lies in the New Covenant. But it is also true that all of Israel is wrapped up in the Prophecy from the beginning to the end. They are mentioned by name (tribal names, all 13) in every bit of the Prophecy, to include times that have not yet happened yet. The names of those tribes are inscribed on the gates of New Jerusalem. There is no way that Jehovah is done with Israel.
Oh, and by the way, Synagogue and Church mean the exact same thing.
;)
Certainly I believe that the ‘will not pass away’ indicates fairly clearly that at least one person of that cohort will be alive to see all those things fulfilled.
I think that is true, too... Although I don't believe Jehovah will be so stingy as to leave but one alive. His Prophecy is not whispering in dark corners... It will be found to be right out in front of everyone, TRUMPETED, as it were, If they would but take heed of the signs and portents. I think "that generation" will be very much alive.
And, I do believe that the clock began ticking with Israel’s rebirth in 1948.
But the prophecy actually says "when you see ALL THESE THINGS"... Israel is the key, to be sure, but all of the measures in the Prophecy must be happening... The generation that sees it all happening will see the end.
Now, the political part is certainly ramping up. Signs in the earth and the heavens can be said to be occurring... The increase in earthquakes started some time ago - The "labor pains" can be seen NOW. So IF Israel is considered to be planted, then THIS generation (today) will see the end of all things - that seems to be certain to me.
Though the 1967 recapture of all of Jerusalem is also a plausible start point.
Maybe more plausible- In the past it has been Jerusalem which has been the trigger.
I’m more skeptical that the start of rebuilding the New Temple would be the start point.
That comes from some Jewish sources who lament that restoring Jerusalem should rightly begin with restoring the Temple. They feel that they have denied God's gift to them because they gave up the Temple Mount. It is a credible argument from their POV. However, the majority view in Judaism seems to be that the Messiah will come to restore the Temple. Go figger. Cannot be, from a Christian perspective, as Christ must enter through the East Gate, which is a part of the Temple.
For one, the globalist TRENDS setting up the GREAT TRIBULATION MUST reach their peaks well before the last years of a generation beginning then . . . would fit. Those trends cannot go on much longer from NOW without us being awash in the vivid predictions of Revelation.
Absolutely agree. But I think the Battle of Magog will throw a huge monkey wrench in things. Huge, d00d. Russia's army devastated, most of the rich Moslem nations obliterated (the drying up of the Euphrates), fire rained down upon the islands who sit "at their ease"... There is a giant power vacuum to fill, and alot of recovering to take place before the kings of the world would care to square off against the God of Israel.
And I don't think the Temple will be built in a few years either. The work is restricted to hand tools on site - No modern cranes, no electrical tools or lighting. That is one huge project with Roman era tools.
I hope I see it all, or a part of me hopes for it - Another part of me dreads those days, as Jehovah rising up in anger is a thing to dread, even though it is righteous.
But for all these reasons I may not see it all. THIS generation surely will... I may yet sleep, but my children will see it come to pass. Of this I am nearly certain. JMO.
Truth, to be sure, but it's primary purpose is to prove to us that God is in FACT, GOD. That is why it is closed up until the time it is to be revealed. Only He knows the beginning from the end, and He told us thousands of years ago. Praise His Holy Name!
WATCH AND PREPARE in anticipation of future events . . .
INDEED! The second purpose of the Prophecy!
God is also a perfect General, amongst other perfectly performed roles.
And HIS WORD will surely come to pass. Not one single syllable will be left wanting!
That is no doubt true, and while the Bible does speak of "digging them out of their warrens", (those who destroy the whole earth), until their betrayals become evident, They are but another of many options.
I hold out every hope for a change in America's heart, and a return of the "children" to their fathers. I can see such a thing being possible, even in the Prophecy, but that would take a back porch, some ice tea, and many hours to detail.
Nope... Would appreciate a ping to it if it is handy.
Put me on your prophecy ping list, will ya?
No, I am being quite specific.
There is no evidence that what the Bible calls the “tribes of Judah” is now living in “sovereign Israel”.
Evidence abounds. From the genetic evidence of the Kohenim, to family histories... It can hardly be argued otherwise. Who is in the state of Israel now are the descendants of Judah and Levi, proven beyond reasonable doubt... Benjamin should be proven too, but is not, by matriarchal lineage.
That argument cannot be made using biblical terms and definitions.
It certainly can. The term "Jew" is simply a shortening of the name Judah. The House of Judah has returned. They have been regathered from all the nations, just as Jehovah said He would do. And the House of Israel will be regathered too, even yet. It is written.
Even the land area that today we call “Israel” does not match with what the Bible calls the land of promise (Gen. 15:18).
And it never has. That is yet to come. And come, it will.
The presuppositions that you are using for your argument, IMO, cannot be sustained from a careful analysis of the Bible.
In my opinion, they can.
Whether this refers to 40 years, or modern extended lifespans remains to be seen
So, you expect this to termination within our lifetime?
No, That isn't what I said. I said, "I may yet sleep..."
The whole of the prophecy states that the generation that sees "ALL THESE THINGS"... Until now, that has not been possible, because Israel has not been a nation.
It is fair to say that things are ratcheting up NOW. THIS generation may well be "That Generation". I would not be surprised at all if I DO see Christ come... If not me, my children... It is at the door.
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