Posted on 09/13/2009 11:48:38 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
(This is an update of a study I first posted in Nov. 2003)
Those who labor to understand the nuances of the battle described in Ezekiel 38-39 quickly identify two major puzzles. One is the timing of the battle and the other is the identity of Gog, from Magog. Suffice it to say here that almost no scholar, certainly none I’m aware of, believes the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 has already taken place. Some believe it will occur just before the beginning of Daniel’s 70th Week, while others believe Ezekiel is actually describing the Battle of Armageddon, which would put it at the end of the Great Tribulation. But all place it sometime in our future.
In my opinion, there are several reasons why Ezekiel 38 can’t be part of the Armageddon scenario. First, only some nations are involved in Ezekiel 38. For example, Saudi Arabia and Western Europe are said to be on the sidelines observing and others you would expect to see, like Egypt and Jordan, are not mentioned at all, although both appear later on. But Zechariah 12:3 says that in preparation for the Battle of Armageddon all the nations of the Earth will come against Jerusalem.
Second, how is Israel going to burn the left over weapons for 7 years as Ezekiel 39:9 indicates unless there are 7 years left in which to burn them? Rev. 21:24. says the nations will walk by the light of the New Jerusalem in the Millennium, so they won’t need fuel for energy then. And then you have Ezekiel 38:11 telling us that Israel will be a peaceful and unsuspecting people when the Moslem coalition strikes. Could that be possible near the end of the Great Tribulation when all the nations are gathering to attack? I don’t think so.
But most importantly, Daniel’s 70th week can’t start until Israel is back in covenant with God and the battle of Ezekiel 38 is what causes the covenant to be re-instated. (Ezek. 39:22) Armageddon comes at the end of Daniel’s 70th week, not the beginning.
As for Gog and Magog, the first thing to note is that while Magog is listed in Genesis 10, Gog is not. The list of 70 names in Genesis 10 is often called the Table of Nations because each of the men named there was the original ancestor of an ethnic group that grew to become a nation of people. For instance, Magog was the 2nd son of Japeth, one of Noah’s three sons, and bore the children who in time became known to the ancient world as the Scythians. They lived in central Asia and are believed to be the forefathers of today’s Russians. Many historical references support this view. For example, Josephus Flavius wrote “Magog founded the Magogians, thus named after him, but who were by the Greeks called Scythians.” And in some ancient Arabic documents, the Great Wall of China is called the Ramparts of Gog and Magog. It was built to keep the Scythians out of China.
So while the Russian people of today are likely descended from Magog, there is no such biological connection for Gog to either Magog or any other ethnic group. There is an unrelated mention of a man named Gog, a grandson of Reuben, in 1 Chronicles 5:4 but there doesn’t seem to be any connection between him and the land of Magog either. Clearly, while Magog refers to the millions of his descendants in today’s Russia, Gog remains a single individual.
Some say he’s a king or leader, and in a real sense I think that’s true but I don’t believe he’s of the human variety. The time spanned by his three appearances in scripture make that impossible.
The first one is in the first verse of Amos 7, but you have to be reading Amos from the Septuigent translation to see it. There, Gog is identified as a king, but of a swarm of locusts. To further shroud him in mystery Proverbs 30:27 states that locusts have no king, and observers of locust swarms agree that no obvious leader directs them, as a queen would direct a hive of bees for example. The swarm of locusts led by Gog in Amos 7:1-2 was symbolic of a judgment that was to come upon the Northern Kingdom, but the Lord relented because of Amos’ intercession.
(This hint also lends insight to another appearance of locusts, by the way. I’m referring to the one in Revelation 9, where a swarm of locusts comes out of the Abyss to afflict those on Earth who lack the seal of God on their foreheads. These locusts have a king named Abaddon in the Hebrew or Appolyon in the Greek. Here again, the Proverbs passage would indicate that these locusts are of supernatural origin like the ones in Amos 7, not ordinary locusts.)
The next time Gog’s mentioned is in Ezekiel 38:1, where he is called by name as the leader of a coalition of what are now primarily Moslem nations attacking Israel. His final mention comes from the Book of Revelation where he again leads the people from Magog against the Lord’s army at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:8).
Even if you’re among those who place the battle of Ezekiel 38 at the end of the Great Tribulation, the span of time between Gog’s last two biblical appearances is at least 1000 years, and while I believe that some born in that era will have long life spans, there isn’t any indication that natural humans born before the Millennium begins will live to see its end. This is especially true of God’s enemies, since all surviving unbelievers are removed from Earth at the beginning of our Lord’s reign.
So I’ve come to the conclusion that Gog is a supernatural figure. The Bible clearly states that behind the human seats of government stand supernatural figures manipulating the thoughts and actions of the world’s leaders. These figures are in Satan’s employ, helping in his effort to wrest ownership of Planet Earth from its Creator. Gog is at least the supernatural figure behind the throne of Russia, and perhaps is even Satan’s counterpart to the Archangel Michael, who commands the Lord’s armies.
In Daniel 10:13 Michael is identified as one of the Lord’s chief princes who in 536 BC came to Daniel’s aid in a supernatural struggle with the Prince of Persia, a nation barely emerging on the world scene having conquered Babylon just three years earlier. At its conclusion Michael told Daniel that he’d soon be battling the Prince of Greece, a nation that didn’t even exist at the time. In Daniel 12:1 we’re told he’ll protect Israel at the end of the age. And in Rev 12:7 he’s seen leading the angelic host in a great battle in heaven when Satan is defeated there and cast down to Earth at the outset of the Great Tribulation. Michael is clearly a supernatural warrior leaping across the pages of history in defense of the Lord’s interests. It makes sense that Satan would have a military commander leading his forces as well, since everything he does seems to mirror the actions of his Creator. With his multiple mentions in Scripture and the long span of time between appearances, Gog could easily be this commander.
Only time will tell if this view is correct. But one of the great advantages of living in our day is that we won’t have long to wait till we find out. You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. 09-12-09
I’m all for thinking outside the box . . .
as long as we stay with UNRUBBERIZED SCRIPTURE and UNRUBBERIZED LOGIC texts AND UNRUBBERIZED dictionaries! LOL.
That’s an interesting take on that. I figured the 7 years would be shortened up a bit, but I never thought to make the whole works fit into 7 months...
Is that even possible?
Have been doing some more pondering on that issue . . .
There’ve been some more ‘leaks’ in recent months about the black ops/ shadow government’s/ globalist’s
games . . .
vis a vis . . .
extra-dimensional technologies . . .
including even . . . drum roll . . .
time machines.
IF . . . the retiring head of Lockeed Skunk Works’ retirement speech’s pronouncement of
IF YOU CAN IMAGINE IT, WE CAN ALREADY DO IT . . .
means anything . . .
it PROBABLY means that at least the imaginations displayed in STARGATE SG1
have SOME sort of real life fulfillment within the bounds God has set.
and IF our evil black shadow government can play with time as with a lump of clay . . .
GOD ALMIGHTY CERTAINLY CAN.
Did you catch the post/thread about the influential Turkish Muslim leader meeting with Jewish leaders interested in rebuilding the 3rd Temple . . . about making it happen?
All the more interesting in that the Muslim leader foresaw it as a kind of ‘ONE WORLD RELIGION’ center.
Sobering given the globalist one world religion efforts.
ping
PING
for ya’ll’s potentially enlightening comments about
God’s use of “soon” in prophecy.
Also to my post #322 about manipulating time and God’s comment about
EXCEPT THE DAYS BE SHORTENED, NO FLESH WOULD BE SAVED.
Does that likely mean fewer days [in which case, why the meticulous description of a precise number of days for the 3.5 year segments of THE GREAT TRIBULATION?]
OR that the daylight hours/duration of each day would be shortened
OR that some other time compression is involved???
GiovannaNicoletta;
Would love to read your comments re my last several posts on this thread.
Megillat Bush - The Bush Scroll:
The Jewish Nation's Response to President George W. Bush on the Eve of His Visit to the Holy Land
http://www.templeinstitute.org/megillat-bush.htm
How do you spell Gog? GeOrGe.
Get your Gog weapons right here!
New book reveals military code names
By Lisa Myers & the NBC investigative unit
updated 5:40 p.m. CT, Thurs., Feb. 10, 2005
In a direct challenge to the U.S. government, military analyst Bill Arkin has published 3,000 U.S. code names — many of them "Top Secret" — along with brief descriptions of the Pentagon or CIA programs they represent.
They are code names like, "Telephone Booth," "Distant Phoenix" and "Blue Zephyr."
The former Army intelligence analyst and former senior Greenpeace researcher argues too much national-security information is hidden from the public and classified for political reasons rather than to guard vital secrets…
• West Wing: Two remote air bases in Jordan used for invading Iraq and now for clandestine military counter-terror operations in the Middle East.
• Oplan 4305: Contingency plan for the defense of Israel. Arkin also says the U.S. has quietly pre-positioned munitions and equipment on Israeli soil.
• Conplan 8022: Top-secret pre-emptive plans to take out nuclear facilities and other threats in Iran, Syria and North Korea.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6948573/
Google Oplan 4305
Ezekiel 38 18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
Madrid Conference of 1991
The Madrid Conference was hosted by the government of Spain and co-sponsored by the USA and the USSR. It convened on October 30, 1991 and lasted for three days. It was an early attempt by the international community to start a peace process through negotiations involving Israel and the Palestinians as well as Arab countries including Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan. In the aftermath of the 1991 Gulf War, US President George H.W. Bush and his Secretary of State James Baker formulated the framework of objectives, and together with the Soviet Union extended a letter of invitation, dated October 30, 1991 to Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and the Palestinians...
"The idea is not to go backwards but to return to the basic formula that was established in Madrid: the exchange of land for peace,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid_Conference
*** The Perfect Storm October 30, 1991 – November 1, 1991
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/satellite/satelliteseye/hurricanes/unnamed91/unnamed91.html
As always, there’s lots more…
Quix, you are in the wrong business.
Thanks for the ping!
wrong business???
What do you mean?
Keeping on keeping on in The Lord’s business as best I can discern it, for me!
I think you are being arbitrary in your use of terms. There is no evidence that what the Bible calls the “tribes of Judah” is now living in “sovereign Israel”. That argument cannot be made using biblical terms and definitions. Even the land area that today we call “Israel” does not match with what the Bible calls the land of promise (Gen. 15:18).
The presuppositions that you are using for your argument, IMO, cannot be sustained from a careful analysis of the Bible.
Whether this refers to 40 years, or modern extended lifespans remains to be seen
So, you expect this to termination within our lifetime?
If you are expecting a response to your childish bloviating, don't hold your breath.
It's obvious they trying to treat you like an adult will not get any adult responses.
Don’t make this thread “about” individual Freepers. That is also “making it personal.”
I largely ignore preterism because it seems equivalent to the Flat Earth Society. To be able to look at the events of today and claim with a straight face that the prophecies that God gave us to look for for the return of Christ to earth happened in 70AD is to place yourself above God, gee, almost like Satan has, and to have such an appalling sickness of pride and arrogance that you have removed yourself from ever being taken seriously as having any knowledge of Scripture whatsoever.
The heart of this error is based on Jesus' statement that "this generation shall not pass, till all things be fulfilled" (Mat 24:34). It seems easy enough to claim Jesus was speaking about a first-century generation; however, logic ends there when one contemplates the fulfillment of all Bible prophecy.
In order to make 70 AD the magic year, we would have to delete dozens of prophecies that were never fulfilled. When was the Gospel preached to all the nations? When was the Mark of the Beast implemented? What about China's 200-million-man army? When did 100-pound hailstones fall from the sky? And what date was it when the Euphrates River dried up?
The questions are endless. Why did we have the rebirth of Israel? If Jerusalem was forever removed from being the burdensome stone, why has it now returned to that status? When did all the Jews shout, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord," as Jesus said they would?
After being so strict in their interpretation of Matthew 24:34, preterists then run roughshod over many clear statements of Scripture. They say that although the "resurrection" happened in 70 AD, the bodies of Christians were left in the grave.
Preterists take the dangerous step of spiritualizing all passages of Scripture that relate to the nation of Israel, and claim that these refer to the church, the "New Israel." They teach that the "old earth," which Scripture says will pass away, is the Old Covenant. The new heaven and new earth, they say, is the New Covenant, and the "elements," which Scripture says will burn with fervent heat when this happens, are the "elements of the law."
Preterism produces some bizarre explanations for why the world is still experiencing suffering and calamity. One explanation I ran across cited God's need for population control as the reason for mankind's suffering. There is simply no credible evidence that any end time prophecy, prophecies which fit completely with what is occurring in our time, happened in 70AD.
Preterists are to be dismissed as unfortunates who have deceived themselves and who attempt to deceive others.
It's persistently soooooooo affirming and comforting when the REPLACEMENTARIANS et al's perspective sooooo tenaciously plays according to their ridiculous script and fantasies.
to wit . . .
##################################
The presuppositions that you are using for your argument, IMO, cannot be sustained from a careful analysis of the Bible. #######################################
How could anyone following UNRUBBERIZED LOGICal Biblical study, analysis etc. . . . taking into consideration original language root word meanings . . . UNRUBBERIZED HISTORIES . . . UNRUBBERIZED DICTIONARIES . . . etc.
. . . taking Scripture at face value . . . trusting that God said what He meant and meant what He said . . . OBSERVING that God has DEMONTRATED that HE INTENDS HIS WORD TO TYPICALLY BE TAKEN LITERALLY--given all the detailed LITERAL fulfillments of prophecies and other Biblical facts . . .
How could all such REMOTELY be considered "arbitrary" except by perspectives partially founded on RUBBER DICTIONARIES!
OHHHHHHHHHHH, RIGHT . . . NO evidence . . . as in the rigorous scientific study demonstrating even the rather startlingly and humanly impossibly pure DNA [Coen sp?] lineage of the PRIEST's line descended from Aaron--resident in Israel . . . calculated--SCIENTIFICALLY calculated traceable to one man living at the time of Aaron.
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, RIIIIIIIIGHT . . . NO evidence . . . as in the Biblical prophecy fulfilled of the RETURNED ISRAEL SPEAKING HEBREW . . . SOMETHING NEVER EVER HAVING OCCURRED IN ALL RECORDED HISTORY with ANY widely dispersed ethnic, cultural, people group. Never happened before. Did with Israel--EXACTLY AS PROPHESIED IN SCRIPTURE. NOT, BTW, in 70A.D.
OHHHHHHHHHH, RAHHHHHGGGGHHHT . . . . as in . . . GOD ALMIGHTY OBVIOUSLY ENGINEERING . . . AS BIBLICALLY PREDICTED QUITE ACCURATELY AND LITERALLY--the whole world arrayed against Jerusalem with Jerusalem a burdensome weight around the necks of the nations of the whole world. . . . as never happened before--certainly NOT in 70A.D. AND CERTAINLY NOT after Israel returned to the Holy Land after the 70AD dispersion.
OHHHHHHHHH . . . RIIIIIIIIIIGHHHHHHT . . . as in . . . the astronomically disproportionate earning of Nobel and other awards by Jewish scholars, inventors and medical personnel around the world and particularly in Israel . . . fulfilling God's Prophecy of the world being blessed PARTICULARLY through the offspring of Jacob.
OHHHHHHHHHH . . . RIIIIIGHHHHTTTT . . . as in . . . Israel fulfilling another prophecy about ISRAEL'S RETURN . . . making the desert bloom like a rose . . . as prophesied in Scripture . . . [BTW, as well as . . . incredibly successful reforestation efforts and great food exporting, fruit farm efforts].
OOHHHHHHHHHH . . . RIIIIIIGHHHHHTTT . . . as in . . . the not quite yet fulfilled but looming rebuilding of the 3rd Jewish Temple . . . witness further puzzle pieces toward fulfillment of that specific END TIMES BIBLE PROPHECY by the disclosure this week of the influential Muslim Turkish scholar who has met with Jewish officials about the REBUILDING OF THE 3RD TEMPLE.
Of course, for perspectives not quite SOOOOOOOOOOOOO foundationally built on the quick sand of REACTIVE ATTACHMENT DISORDERED dynamics . . . adherents would probably be much more realistic and much more able to say . . . some variation of "Oooooooops. Guess I was wrong." Not so in this case. Like most cultish RELIGIOUS systems, this one is likely to be TENACIOUSLY, IRRATIONALLY DOGMATIC until Christ splits the Mount of Olives--another JEWISH PROPHECY with fulfillment looming startlingly closer and closer.
That's a wonderful point for the UNRUBBERIZED BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE. Thanks TC.
The options are not endless.
Either God was NOT OMNISCIENT . . . and did NOT realize that down the road, that the REPLACEMENTARIANS et al would notice that God had been clueless in failing to realize that HE would flush the children of Jacob in favor of the Christian Church
Omniscient, NEVER forgetful God was very forgetful and couldn't keep very good track of his ETERNAL UNFAILING PROMISES to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob . . . so the boundaries thing just got forgotten and neglected in 1948 and 1967 vis a vis the children of Jacob.
God changed His UNCHANGING fickle mind.
God decided that His UNCHANGING EVERLASTING PROMISES were USA Democarp promises and thereby not worth the sheepskin they were inked on.
Perhaps it's just NOT QUITE the precise time for that fulfillment yet . . . given that ARMAGEDDON has not happened yet . . . RREPLACEMENTARIAN DELUSIONS about 70AD considered and sanely, compassionately flushed.
However, stay tuned. This IS the END TIMES ERA . . . and Israel has far more of that geography under it's control than it's had for around 2,000 years.
. . . presuppositions . . .
Presuppositions???? Taking Scripture at face value and watching it be literally specifically fulfilled to the letter is a pile of stinking presuppositions????
Naw, that's the REPLACEMENTARIANS et al's addictive habit. Not ours.
INDEED TO THE MAX. Wonderfully put. Thanks tons.
It's soooooooooooo encouraging to see another beloved believer so reality based. Yea!
I mostly hate the potential such dunder-headed perspectives have to mislead young Christians and those contemplating a relationship with Christ amongst the lurkers hereon. I'm skeptical that many REPLACEMENTARIANS et al have much of a chance to adjust their fantasy constructions on reality enough and quickly enough to get on board with God and what he's doing in these END TIMES.
And if there WERE EVER AN ERA, DISPENSATION WHEN folks
OUGHT to LOGICALLY be very VIGOROUS AND RELENTLESSLY RUTHLESS WITH THEMSELVES ABOUT INSURING THEY ARE 110% ON GOD'S SIDE . . .
THIS IS THAT ERA.
Boggles my mind to see some of the utter irrational nonsense posted by folks pretending to have a brain and EVEN to have it turned on.
INDEED
TO THE MAX!
That is what bothers me the most, I think: that the deception put forth on this forum in almost all of the end-time prophecy posts that we need not worry, that all of Revelation has happened already and there is no need to prepare oneself for the imminent return of Christ, might lead someone who is searching or who does not know Christ as Savior to reject Him and spend all eternity separated from Him.
Satan is very subtle- he will provide just the tiniest bit of truth for the deception to get a foothold and then go in for the kill with lies about the most important aspects of the issue. Thus, yes, technically Israel is back in their Biblical land and yes, technically they call themselves a nation, BUT BUT BUT they don't have all the land God gave them to begin with.
You see? Just enough truth to get the deceptive nose under the tent then the real target is hit- the denial that the 1948 creation of the nation of Israel was a literal fulfillment of Bible prophecy.
This is what infuriates me. That those who may not recognize the subtle deception may come to the conclusion that the Scripture is not quite true, and that God cannot be trusted to always be truthful.
They believe that to expect a visible, bodily coming of Jesus, a resurrection of the dead, a final judgment, and a cataclysmic destruction of the present creation in the future on the basis of any prophecy of Scripture is mistaken. All is past.
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