Posted on 09/13/2009 11:48:38 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
(This is an update of a study I first posted in Nov. 2003)
Those who labor to understand the nuances of the battle described in Ezekiel 38-39 quickly identify two major puzzles. One is the timing of the battle and the other is the identity of Gog, from Magog. Suffice it to say here that almost no scholar, certainly none I’m aware of, believes the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 has already taken place. Some believe it will occur just before the beginning of Daniel’s 70th Week, while others believe Ezekiel is actually describing the Battle of Armageddon, which would put it at the end of the Great Tribulation. But all place it sometime in our future.
In my opinion, there are several reasons why Ezekiel 38 can’t be part of the Armageddon scenario. First, only some nations are involved in Ezekiel 38. For example, Saudi Arabia and Western Europe are said to be on the sidelines observing and others you would expect to see, like Egypt and Jordan, are not mentioned at all, although both appear later on. But Zechariah 12:3 says that in preparation for the Battle of Armageddon all the nations of the Earth will come against Jerusalem.
Second, how is Israel going to burn the left over weapons for 7 years as Ezekiel 39:9 indicates unless there are 7 years left in which to burn them? Rev. 21:24. says the nations will walk by the light of the New Jerusalem in the Millennium, so they won’t need fuel for energy then. And then you have Ezekiel 38:11 telling us that Israel will be a peaceful and unsuspecting people when the Moslem coalition strikes. Could that be possible near the end of the Great Tribulation when all the nations are gathering to attack? I don’t think so.
But most importantly, Daniel’s 70th week can’t start until Israel is back in covenant with God and the battle of Ezekiel 38 is what causes the covenant to be re-instated. (Ezek. 39:22) Armageddon comes at the end of Daniel’s 70th week, not the beginning.
As for Gog and Magog, the first thing to note is that while Magog is listed in Genesis 10, Gog is not. The list of 70 names in Genesis 10 is often called the Table of Nations because each of the men named there was the original ancestor of an ethnic group that grew to become a nation of people. For instance, Magog was the 2nd son of Japeth, one of Noah’s three sons, and bore the children who in time became known to the ancient world as the Scythians. They lived in central Asia and are believed to be the forefathers of today’s Russians. Many historical references support this view. For example, Josephus Flavius wrote “Magog founded the Magogians, thus named after him, but who were by the Greeks called Scythians.” And in some ancient Arabic documents, the Great Wall of China is called the Ramparts of Gog and Magog. It was built to keep the Scythians out of China.
So while the Russian people of today are likely descended from Magog, there is no such biological connection for Gog to either Magog or any other ethnic group. There is an unrelated mention of a man named Gog, a grandson of Reuben, in 1 Chronicles 5:4 but there doesn’t seem to be any connection between him and the land of Magog either. Clearly, while Magog refers to the millions of his descendants in today’s Russia, Gog remains a single individual.
Some say he’s a king or leader, and in a real sense I think that’s true but I don’t believe he’s of the human variety. The time spanned by his three appearances in scripture make that impossible.
The first one is in the first verse of Amos 7, but you have to be reading Amos from the Septuigent translation to see it. There, Gog is identified as a king, but of a swarm of locusts. To further shroud him in mystery Proverbs 30:27 states that locusts have no king, and observers of locust swarms agree that no obvious leader directs them, as a queen would direct a hive of bees for example. The swarm of locusts led by Gog in Amos 7:1-2 was symbolic of a judgment that was to come upon the Northern Kingdom, but the Lord relented because of Amos’ intercession.
(This hint also lends insight to another appearance of locusts, by the way. I’m referring to the one in Revelation 9, where a swarm of locusts comes out of the Abyss to afflict those on Earth who lack the seal of God on their foreheads. These locusts have a king named Abaddon in the Hebrew or Appolyon in the Greek. Here again, the Proverbs passage would indicate that these locusts are of supernatural origin like the ones in Amos 7, not ordinary locusts.)
The next time Gog’s mentioned is in Ezekiel 38:1, where he is called by name as the leader of a coalition of what are now primarily Moslem nations attacking Israel. His final mention comes from the Book of Revelation where he again leads the people from Magog against the Lord’s army at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:8).
Even if you’re among those who place the battle of Ezekiel 38 at the end of the Great Tribulation, the span of time between Gog’s last two biblical appearances is at least 1000 years, and while I believe that some born in that era will have long life spans, there isn’t any indication that natural humans born before the Millennium begins will live to see its end. This is especially true of God’s enemies, since all surviving unbelievers are removed from Earth at the beginning of our Lord’s reign.
So I’ve come to the conclusion that Gog is a supernatural figure. The Bible clearly states that behind the human seats of government stand supernatural figures manipulating the thoughts and actions of the world’s leaders. These figures are in Satan’s employ, helping in his effort to wrest ownership of Planet Earth from its Creator. Gog is at least the supernatural figure behind the throne of Russia, and perhaps is even Satan’s counterpart to the Archangel Michael, who commands the Lord’s armies.
In Daniel 10:13 Michael is identified as one of the Lord’s chief princes who in 536 BC came to Daniel’s aid in a supernatural struggle with the Prince of Persia, a nation barely emerging on the world scene having conquered Babylon just three years earlier. At its conclusion Michael told Daniel that he’d soon be battling the Prince of Greece, a nation that didn’t even exist at the time. In Daniel 12:1 we’re told he’ll protect Israel at the end of the age. And in Rev 12:7 he’s seen leading the angelic host in a great battle in heaven when Satan is defeated there and cast down to Earth at the outset of the Great Tribulation. Michael is clearly a supernatural warrior leaping across the pages of history in defense of the Lord’s interests. It makes sense that Satan would have a military commander leading his forces as well, since everything he does seems to mirror the actions of his Creator. With his multiple mentions in Scripture and the long span of time between appearances, Gog could easily be this commander.
Only time will tell if this view is correct. But one of the great advantages of living in our day is that we won’t have long to wait till we find out. You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. 09-12-09
The interesting thing about the two witnesses is that their bodies will lay dead on the ground for three days. Everyone will see them - the entire world - how could that have happened before satellite TV and CNN, FOXNEWS, etc.? Kewl...hmmm?
If that is true, then what did Jesus mean when He said,
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: " Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. (Luke 21)
What does it mean by “all the trees” budding?
Methinks your interpretation of the fig tree in the context of the Olivet Discourse is faulty.
You might want to read my comments in this post about this flawed fig tree interpretation.
Where does it say that anywhere in the text about the activities of the one hundred and forty four thousand?
But don't forget Revelation 1:19
Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.
THANKS THANKS.
Have made that point repeatedly
to the REPLACEMENTARIANS et al hereon.
They have not even the faintest reasonable, intelligent and certainly not the least bit of an UNRUBBERIZED BIBLICAL response to that point.
Evidently, even they know that one point scuttles their whole house of cards wholesale.
How does that nullify that Revelation is all about things which “must shortly take place”? (v. 1:1) There is no justification for ignoring this critical time texts.
Besides, verse 19 only speaks of two categories, the thing that are and the things that take place after. Both of these fit into the timeframe of what “must shortly take place.” There is absolutely no justification for inserting thousands of years artificially anywhere in the book. Except to prop up the futurist interpretation.
Revelation 7 (King James Version)
Revelation 7
1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
It’s 1:30 a.m. here...OK if we take this up again tomorrow? Have a good night!
Good evening.
You said; that will go out to bring Israel back to Jehovah.
I do not see anything in the text about what these one hundred and forty four thousand are allegedly doing, or any service they are performing for God.
I have made it painfully clear that trying to predict prophecy is a useless endeavor... That it generally can only be clearly seen after the fact. So no, I am not sure about the starting point. But is it significant that the tribes of Judah are now living in sovereign Israel? The first time Israel has been sovereign since Babylon destroyed the Temple? You bet that's significant.
But for all I know, the order to build the Temple is the "start", in which case, the generational clock isn't even ticking yet. It is the opinion of some Jews that this is the case - that the Messiah will not come because they have not done what they should, and begin to build Ezekiel's Temple.
And how long is this generation?
Generally, a Biblical generation is assumed to be 40 years. But the passage says that "that generation will not pass away"... This suggests that the generation will not die before these things come to pass. Whether this refers to 40 years, or modern extended lifespans remains to be seen.
I am pretty much even with you on this idea. I won't commit at this point, as "the other shoe has to drop", as it were, before I know what the next step is. I always have to look backward at prophecy, as I said. Forward has too many options yet.
No problemo, FRiend.
I am not seriously tied to any future prognostication. I am content to wait and see, so long as I see soon enough to *duck* :D
I know the commonly held view is to be on the look-out for the two witnesses... And I am... But I have to look at things a bit sideways from time to time... That's what gives me my eclectic charm :D
That's an interesting take on that. I figured the 7 years would be shortened up a bit, but I never thought to make the whole works fit into 7 months...
Is that even possible?
MORE UNMITIGATED BALDERDASH from the REPLACEMENTARIAN et al RUBBER BIBLE.
1. The Old Testament has an abundance of 'soonish' sounding promises which did not appear to demonstrate fulfillment until, often, decades to many generations later.
2. And, God even makes it clear in Scripture that TO HIM, a thousand years is as a day.
3. Evidently there are many words in that verse which are not in the REPLACEMENTARIAN et al's RUBBER DICTIONARIES, leaving such words incomprehensible to them.
4. Abraham may well have wondered when he'd take possession of the land with the boundaries promised to him. Particularly when Joseph was sold into slavery and then the famine descended.
5. David probably wondered when he'd become king given being chased all over the country side by Saul.
6. The children of Israel enslaved in Egypt for 400 years probably thought deliverance so vividly promised was never going to come as generation after generation died without seeing it.
7. Adam and Even looked to each succeeding generation for 100's of years for THE DELIVERER, THE SAVIOR, THE MESSIAH. They never saw Him in this time/space dimension.
8. Each succeeding generation up to the bloke who saw baby Jesus just before he died looked for the promised DELIVERER without seeing Him.
9. The exiles in Babylon likely thought the stated years of captivity's duration would never end.
10. The New Testament has plenty of references to our SOON COMING RETURN OF THE KING.
11. Where is He? The Mt of Olives has not been split into a big valley yet! He has not set up His throne in the New Jerusalem ruling the Millenial kingdoms of the earth with a rod of iron, yet. He has not come and vanquished all the forces of evil at Armageddon, yet.
12. By the pseudo, irrational RUBBER LOGIC of the REPLACEMENTARIAN et al's position this post is responding to, all that should have happened [I gather in 70A.D.] based on their finite ASSUMPTIONS and 'tidy-little-boxed' interpretations of their RUBBER BIBLE'S "soon."
How underwhelming.
However, I've NEVER allowed that finite mystification and non-understanding on my humble part
to indulge in
the affrontery
of telling ALMIGHTY GOD
that HE cannot use whatever vocabulary HE CHOOSES with whatever mystical, mystifying, hidden, obscure, curious meanings HE ATTACHES to said words.
IT HAPPENS TO BE HIS WORD.
IT HAPPENS TO BE HIS CREATION.
IT HAPPENS TO BE HIS MULTI-VERSE.
HE HAPPENS TO BE MAXIMALLY FREE THEREIN, TO DO AS HE PLEASES.
It is up to us to call on His Spirit to ferret out His meanings and purposes with His unique uses of His vocabulary.
HE CLEARLY has a PURPOSE in using every word He chose to use in His word. He did not play dice in His choice of words. He did not and certainly did not NEED to consult TopCat nor Quix in His choice of words.
It is up to us to CONFORM OUR THEOLOGY TO HIS WORD CHOICES, NOT vice versa. It's best to do that with the whole counsel of the whole of Scripture.
Yes, there are mysteries aplenty in Scripture. That's NO EXCUSE for irrational RUBBER BIBLING in response thereto.
Given that past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, we can most probably expect that there will be no reasoned, UNRUBBERIZED LOGICAL, UNRUBBERIZED BIBLICAL response to these posts. Instead, there's most likely to be some cryptic derisive sort of response or some pseudo-cute graphic response or some 'pffft' sort of response or some other sort of slipping and sliding dodge. No matter. The intellectual & UNrubberized Authentic Biblical impoverishment of the other perspective is vividly evident for all to see.
And some such meanings may remain curious and obscure until we see Him face to face.
However, a thousand years equals a day is a huge clue.
Wise folks take it thoughtfully at face value.
Wise folks avoid telling God what His Word CAN'T mean.
Wise folks conform their understandings and assumptions TO GOD'S WORD.
Wise folks AVOID trying to stretch THEIR RUBBER BIBLED assumptions around all manner of convoluted corners, all the while pretending it's still God's authentic Word when that was left in the dust many rubber covered corners ago.
Really?
I thought the RUBBER BIBLES would come with tailor-made magic glasses.
LOL.
The context does communicate some things about the 144,000.
I guess the RUBBER LOGIC texts prevent enlightenment on that score.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
Gads, I long for that day.
YOU CHEAT. YOU USE AN UNrubberized authentic Bible! LOL.
Excellent points:
I have made it painfully clear that trying to predict prophecy is a useless endeavor... That it generally can only be clearly seen after the fact. So no, I am not sure about the starting point. But is it significant that the tribes of Judah are now living in sovereign Israel? The first time Israel has been sovereign since Babylon destroyed the Temple? You bet that’s significant.
But for all I know, the order to build the Temple is the “start”, in which case, the generational clock isn’t even ticking yet. It is the opinion of some Jews that this is the case - that the Messiah will not come because they have not done what they should, and begin to build Ezekiel’s Temple.
And how long is this generation?
Generally, a Biblical generation is assumed to be 40 years. But the passage says that “that generation will not pass away”... This suggests that the generation will not die before these things come to pass. Whether this refers to 40 years, or modern extended lifespans remains to be seen.
Certainly I believe that the ‘will not pass away’ indicates fairly clearly that at least one person of that cohort will be alive to see all those things fulfilled.
And, I do believe that the clock began ticking with Israel’s rebirth in 1948. Though the 1967 recapture of all of Jerusalem is also a plausible start point. I’m more skeptical that the start of rebuilding the New Temple would be the start point.
For one, the globalist TRENDS setting up the GREAT TRIBULATION MUST reach their peaks well before the last years of a generation beginning then . . . would fit.
Those trends cannot go on much longer from NOW without us being awash in the vivid predictions of Revelation.
Certainly OThuga is doing all he can to insure that.
I do believe that prophecy is
MUCH EASIER to be ‘accurate’ about AFTER THE FACT! LOL.
However, I also believe that God gave it to us to help us
WATCH AND PREPARE in anticipation of future events . . . without signalling toooooooooo much to the enemy.
God is also a perfect General, amongst other perfectly performed roles.
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