and CANDIDLY
and HISTORICALLY
and CONGRUENTLY
and BIBLICALLY
and ACCURATELY
would SIMPLY
increase
FRUSTRATION.
Posted on 02/24/2009 10:10:12 AM PST by topcat54
Calvary Chapel of Chino California held “ The Southern California Prophecy Conference” last week (Feb. 20–22, 2009). I wonder if those who came to hear speakers like Tim LaHaye, Mark Hitchcock, Paul McGuire, David Hocking, David Reagan, and Ed Hindson were aware that Chuck Smith, the founder of the Calvary Chapel network of churches, made some very definite predictions about when the “rapture” was going to take place.
While cleaning up my office, I came across a cassette tape of a sermon Chuck Smith preached on December 31, 1979. He told his very accepting audience on that day that the rapture would take place in 1981. The former Soviet Republic going into Afghanistan in August of 1978 was the prelude to what Smith considered to be a full-force invasion of the Middle East. It would not be long before “Russia” would invade Israel, Smith told his audience. All of this was said to have been “predicted” by Ezekiel 2600 years ago.
Smith went on to claim in his end-of-the-year message of 30 years ago that because of ozone depletion Revelation 16:8 would be fulfilled during the soon-coming Great Tribulation: “And the fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to scorch men with fire.” According to Smith, Halley’s Comet would pass near the earth in 1986 and would wreck atmospheric havoc for those left behind as debris from its million-mile tail pummeled the earth. Halley’s Comet did appear in 1986 with no damage done to our planet. (A similar prelude to the end had been predicted based on the so-called Jupiter Effect.[1]) ...
(Excerpt) Read more at americanvision.org ...
I agree.
LOL . . . particularly a lot of the “unique” parts. LOL.
Rev 7:1-14 leaves little doubt as to the identity of the 144,000. They are from Israel, a remnant. They aren’t Gentiles. They come out of the Great Tribulation.
You are correct. There are multiple verses in the Bible pointing directly to such doctrine.
The claim that I was disputing was that these are 144,000 Jewish evangelists running around the world converting folks to Christ, or some such similar belief. That is what you claimed.
If there were multiple verses that teach such a doctrine, I’m sure you would have pointed to them directly.
But the fact is that there is none. The idea of 144,000 Jewish evangelists during the futurist tribulation period is one of the myths of futurism. It just gets repeated from meeting to TV program without substantiation. It is a futurist axiom.
As for the meaning of the symbol of the one hundred and forty four thousand in Rev. 7 and 14, that also is not a clear as the futurists would have us believe. Most futurists do not deal with the symbolism behind the number (12x12x1000), just as they do not deal with the symbolism behind most of the numbers in Revelation. See the dimensions of the great city, the holy Jerusalem in Rev. 21:16; a perfect cube measuring 12x1000 stadia on a side. Or the measurement of the wall surrounding the city, 12x12 cubits.
Futurists assert there is “little doubt” as to the identity of the one hundred and forty four thousand because they all agree among themselves. They all assert the same set of axioms and come to the same conclusions. They rarely interact with the larger body of evangelical/conservative Christian scholarship that simply does not agree with their conclusions.
and CANDIDLY
and HISTORICALLY
and CONGRUENTLY
and BIBLICALLY
and ACCURATELY
would SIMPLY
increase
FRUSTRATION.
I can certainly imagine
that
trying to pretend to be an honest Christian while stretching the RUBBER REPLACEMENTARIAN BIBLE
so persistently sky-West and crooked
would be a classic case of contortionist frustration-in-futility attacks to the max.
Turn left at Greenland.
Israel is not Israel (Rom. 9:6,7)
End of story.
No, there is not 'little' doubt...There is NO doubt...
The passage says 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel...Therefore, it is 'tribes of the children of Israel'...
You don't have to interpret it; all you have to do is read...
You don't have to understand it; all you have to do is believe...
Since no one here actually teaches “replacement theology” there are no ramifications to consider, except in a purely academic sense.
See Not Replacement...Expansion! by Fred Klett.
It’s pretty clear that so-called “replacement theology” is a boogeyman created in the fertile mind of futurist who see their grip on the Church slowly slipping away and more and more of their “prophecies” about the end times fail to materialize. And so they invented “replacement theology” as a whipping boy to divert attention away from the own exegetical and theological failures.
Every time someone point out the failure of futurist to tell us much of anything that is useful, the cry goes out “replacement theology” to divert us way from the fact that the futurist emperor has no clothes.
Why have we accepted ideas that are contrary to the Bible? It’s because God’s revelation has been filtered through a pagan mindset. I’m convinced that our walk with God is hindered in ways we cannot even imagine because our pagan Gentile mindset blinds us to much of God’s revelation.
If the pagan mind has such a difficult time understanding the truth of God, how can the world come to know Him? God’s solution to this problem was to raise up a priestly nation, specially trained to understand and communicate the truth of God. His plan was to choose a people and prepare them, like an athlete in training, putting them through difficult situations and placing on them stringent requirements to instill in them the ways of God. They would be equipped to serve as lights to the nations, to communicate the things of God to the rest of mankind.
That’s why God created the Jewish people. He took the offspring of Abraham and for 2000 years He shaped their culture and understanding to bring them into line with His truth. He gave them a revelation of His nature… that there is only one God, that He is a jealous God, that He will not share His glory with pagan idols. He revealed that He is a holy God, a loving God, and a righteous God.
He gave them a prophetic view of history. They learned where history started, where it’s headed, and what Messiah would come to do.
Through His Torah, He shaped the daily lives of the people. He taught them about holiness: holy days, holy people, and holy places. He taught them about righteousness and repentance. He divided their world into clean and unclean to teach them the defilement of sin and what it means to be set apart to God. He taught them about sacrifice and about blood covenant. Many ancient peoples knew something about blood covenant, but they didn’t know it like the Jews did!
God instilled in them a biblical cycle of life. The Sabbaths and the feasts formed a rich tapestry against which life was played out, teaching and reminding them each year of the central principles of life with God.
God gave them practical wisdom for success. He taught them how to prosper, to demonstrate to the world the blessing of being God’s people.
Through repeated chastening and correction, He hammered into their minds what is required of those who would walk with God.
Then after two thousand years of preparation, Messiah came. Because of the foundation God had built into the Jewish people, they knew who He was and what He would accomplish.
When John the Baptist introduced Jesus, he did not have to spend three hours describing who Jesus was and what He came to do. He just said, “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” They knew what he meant! They knew what a sacrificial lamb was, and what Messiah would do. (Interestingly, most of the Jews who rejected Jesus were those who had turned from their own Jewish roots and became enamored with pagan Greek philosophy!)
Throughout their history God revealed that He had chosen the Jews to be a nation of priests, a people specially prepared to communicate His truth to the Gentile nations. When God first brought the Israelites out of Egypt, He told them, “You will be for me a kingdom of priests” (Ex. 19:6). As the Levitical priests ministered the things of God to Israel, so the nation of Israel would minister the truth of God to the Gentiles.
God promised the Jews that, “Nations (Gentiles) will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your dawn” (Isa. 60:3), and “You will be called priests of the Lord, you will be named ministers of our God” (Isa. 61:6).
In Zechariah, God spoke of a future time when “ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you’” (Zech 8:23).
God called the Jewish people to be a light to the Gentile nations. God placed them in the truths we need to know if we are to walk with God. That’s the rich sap from the olive root!
Many have assumed when Paul announced, “I’m going to the Gentiles!” that it was a rejection of his Judaism. Far from it! It was the fulfillment of his Judaism! He was saying, “I’m pressing on to fulfill the call of our people, to be a light to the Gentiles.”
Wherever he went, he ministered first to the Jews. Those were the ones prepared by God to receive his message. The first Gentiles saved were usually those already attending Synagogue, who had already gained some understanding of God. Wherever possible, Paul started each church with a core of Messianic Jews. They were to be the leadership of the early church. Their duty as members of God’s priestly nation was to communicate the ways of God to the Gentile converts. (end excerpt)
Jesus Himself said "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matthew 28:19-20)
What about the tribe of Dan? And why is Manasseh mentioned twice and Ephraim not mentioned at all?
Simplistic assertions such as yours are one reason why futurists don’t get the book of Revelation. Ignoring the symbols drawn largely from the old covenant prophets is the other. Having a Israel-centric rather than Christocentric view of the Bible and the world also makes things difficult for you.
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ … 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3)Anyone who ignores the NT when formulating their conclusions about the true “Seed” of Abraham is bound to get it wrong. It’s not about genetics, my friend.
it
is clear
you have
a FERTILE
VEGETARIAN
COMPLEMENTARIAN
SUPERLAPSARIAN
ELEPHANTARIAN
imagination.
Turn left at Greenland.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh . . .
LOL
/S
.
The Church is not Israel.
Israel is not Israel (Rom. 9:6,7)
End of story.
About the time I think I've seen the maximum absurdity from the REPLACEMENTARIAN perspective, they offer up something hideously worse!
GOD DECLARES IN GOD'S OWN WORD . . . THAT AS LONG AS THERE ARE STARS . . . THERE WILL BE ISRAEL AS ISRAEL.
I'm sure God's very impressed with REPLACEMENTARIANS calling God a liar.
Thankfully, GOD ALONE WRITES THE END OF THE STORY AND SOME OF THAT, HE HAS ALREADY WRITTEN IN HIS WORD.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
This is the attitude I’ve found for most “pre trib rapture” fans. When shown countless examples of how pre-trib rapture promoters have falsely predicted the 2nd coming of Christ in the past, they will shrug their shoulders and say at least one, if not more than one of the following:
1. Doesn’t matter. I’m not beholden to a “man”, I’m beholden to the Bible and Christ.
2. No where does the Bible say that it’s forbidden to predict a time FRAME of when Christ will return. We’re just not allowed to predict an exact hour and day. Sure this guy was wrong about HIS time frame, but who’s to say Pastor X (insert name of favorite “prophet” here) is wrong?
3. Scripture tells us of certain signs that will precede His Return! Don’t you believe in following all of Scripture, and “being ready” for His return? (here of course the fan is falsely equating “being ready for His Return” with assigning current events to Biblical prophecies, esp from Rev and Dan, even though throughout much of Church history, exegetically speaking this was a no-no, not only because for most of Church history, the Church was quite a-millenial in her eschatological concerns, but also because to “be ready” for His Return simply meant keeping in a state of grace (friendship with God), NOT keeping up on current events)
Of course, what all 3 of these reactions give the person saying them is a virtual “carte-blanche” to continue to believe in any prophet that may come down the road, asking one simply to “buy the book to find out more”. There’s no “falsification” of the entire concept of “pre-tribulation rapture” possible; it’s impossible to disprove the very notion, given the excuses above. This alone should give one pause, for this is a dangerous blank check, not only for one’s finances but for one’s spiritual health. It’s a vicious cycle that feeds on itself.
Typically, with all due respect to such believers, those who cling to a “pre-trib rapture” eschatology have a life that is full of hardship, be it mental, physical or spiritual. This then becomes their “last hope”, and also becomes something to look forward to for their entire life. A glorious “snatching away” where all their pain will be gone in an instant.
However, if I may be so bold, this is not traditional Christianity. In Christianity, we *are* expected to suffer, as we not only walk toward God, but work toward a better world here. Our faith isn’t to be some kind of magic pill that, if not “today”, “someday” will make all our pain go away. Our faith is to sustain us, until our death in Christ, OR until He returns again, for THE final judgement, not multiple judgements.
For the last 2,000 years, there have been plenty who have suffered greatly in the Body of Christ. I submit it would be “favoritism” on God’s part to suddenly snatch away one generation from its suffering, while others “ran the race to the end” in times past. As we know however, “God is not a respecter of persons”.
Just something to think about. If points 1-3 don’t give the pre-tribber reading this cause for pause.
Later…
M
Jews and Joes
Because both houses matter!
http://jewsandjoes.com/history-and-timeline-of-israel-and-judah.html
The passage says 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel...Therefore, it is 'tribes of the children of Israel'...
You don't have to interpret it; all you have to do is read...
You don't have to understand it; all you have to do is believe...
OF A CLEAR AND PRESENT PERCEPTIVENESS THOU HAS TICKLED GOSPEL TRUTH OUT OF THINE KEYBOARD!
HOWEVER
There is this bit of a matter of
WHICH, given their wholesale mangling of Scripture and shredding it all over the trash dump . . . I fail to find significant evidence that they can read, at all!
However, you may have hit upon a key clue to their terminal malady. They REFUSE TO BELIEVE THE BIBLE. THEY REFUSE TO BELIEVE WHAT GOD SAID. THEY REFUSE TO BELIEVE GOD. So, yet again, we are forced to conclude, their hideousness about Israel is WILLFUL BLINDNESS.
GREAT POINTS.
EXCELLENT TEXT.
THANKS.
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