Atheoligical Tendency ~Open~

So is it you hypothesis that he word was lost the day Christ died?

This is a very profound subject. So I'll do my best to try to explain my view point.

Not the day Christ died, no. By 4th century the true Gospel was gone. The apostles were killed. There was no one left to keep the doctrine pure. By 4th century the people were making up their own doctrine choosing which scripture they would keep and so on.

And as Amos prophesied the people could search the whole earth and not find the word of God. Because the true gospel(by God's standard) was gone. Rejected by man. Which is our right to do.

Paul's entire ministry was trying to stop this great apostasy which was over taking the Church. Paul had success but in the end he was only one man against a tide. Paul exclaimed:

2 Timothy 1:15
15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me;

Asia at that time was: Turkey, Mysia, Lydia, Caria, parts of Phrygia and the adjoining islands. Ephesus was the capital.

That wonderful letter to the Ephesians?...Eventually all those "believers" in Ephesus turned against Paul. They still called themselves "Christians". But they went off teaching their own thing and not the true gospel that Paul taught.

Then why even use the bible, with the letters of Paul, in your church, modified or not.

Because they are scripture and they are of priceless value.

By 4th century it was over. The true gospel of Christ did not exist on the earth even though there were religionists just like today proclaiming God this and God that.

And the age of darkness began.

They reigned with blood, terror, fear, and superstition for nearly 2000 years. It's truly a sad story.

And Christ's words were true, "by their fruits you shall know them."

Stourme, virtually all of the humans that have ever lived have lived during the past 2000 years and most of them during the last few centuries.

The world population has exploded since 17th century no doubt..but that doesn't diminish the fact that the earth had people all over it. From China to the Roman empire..africa and Asia... not just Palestine.

Oh and Godzilla I love your profile. :)
I bet you and I'd be best buds in the real world. I'm a certifiable gun nut and I love muzzle loaders. :)
I'm new to FR..but am I the only one that thinks Joe Horn would be the perfect neighbor?

In the case of the 1st vision you have joseph smith's word that he was multiple ages when it occured, was it in the woods or his bedroom, who appeared, how many appeared, the year it occured. In each of these different categories smith contradicts himself - it could only happen in either 1820 or 1823 - not both. It could only have happened in the woods or the bedroom - it is impossible for a first vision to occur in both locations, etc. Paul's account of his encounter with Christ does not contain contradictions as smith's account does. So by that standard smith is a false prophet while Paul's testamony stands the test. Since smith lied about the whole vision thing, he probably lied about a lot of other things too.

++++++++++++++++++

First off, you are using Joseph's direct writings, and the second hand writings of others and comparing them to just Paul's first hand writings.

But then again, who cares.

The apostles were dead well before the fourth Century, otherwise they would have been 400 hundred years old.

The light of Christ cannot be extinguished by the acts of mortal man no matter how brutal times may have been. Men of Christ carried on, endured through the mayhem foist upon the rapidly growing faith by the evil one.

The word has never left us, Paul's lessons are what has built the modern church.

Seeking to take Amos and apply it to fit some prophecy in reverse, while an interesting aside, does not make it so.

When indeed there are none left who call themselves Christian, a day that may come, then Amos will have been fulfilled. The word still lives among the faithful, it has gone no where, and God did not turn his back and disappeard from this Earth.

An interesting contradiction for you. A few weeks ago on this very board, a July Fourth article by I believe your current LDS president, sung the virtues of the Founding Fathers, and discussed how inspired by God the Constitution was.

If what you say is true, that God abandoned us and we abandoned his word, and continued to do so, and that the Word was not restored until it was given back to J. Smith, then how can the Constitution be divinely inspired, some 40-50 years before the Word came back to man in the hands of the “prophet” Smith, before God came back to us?

That makes little sense, and it is from “the horses mouth” so to speak....

another case of do as you say, not as you do.

First off, you are using Joseph's direct writings, and the second hand writings of others and comparing them to just Paul's first hand writings.

++++++++++++++++++

So he is comparing apples to apples?

I can see where that would be a problem for you. As I am rapidly learning by reading them, first hand sources are the last thing the LDS wants to go by.

First off, you are using Joseph's direct writings, and the second hand writings of others and comparing them to just Paul's first hand writings

F - even smith's personal diary in his handwriting contradicts the official account, let alone the account he dictated to Cowdry and published in time and seasons IIRC.

Who cares - well those who want truth and those who would rather be deceived.

God calls and has called many through out history. There have been great men, and women, of God who have answered Christ's call for 2000 years.

I totally agree. There have been great individuals through out history. The Founders of our nation and Christopher Columbus stand out to me at the moment.

Just because we do not keep making the Bible larger and larger does not mean that scripture is not being written in the hearts of the faithful, that lessons are still not being taught, but again God has turned that job over to us, who, like you said yourself, hear God's words.

that lessons are still not being taught,

There in lies the problem...you don't know if the lesson is right or not.

I know it would be of benefit to the desires of the LDS to have a heavily divided Christian faith, it would be a self fulfilling "prophecy" that could lend at least some credence to the words of your Prophets. Sadly, no such divide really exists, the differences fall to trivialities amongst the faithful when the sum total is taken into account.

Unfortunately this isn't true. Not by a long shot. It's true that the hostilities have cooled, mostly due to apathy and the fact that genocide became unfashionable.

For one example: In the late 16th century through the early 17th century the Lutheran church carried out genocide in Austria. They killed 30,000 (and not quickly either they preferred torturing people to death)people over the doctrine of infant baptism.

The ana-baptist, who believed infant baptism to be wrong, were killed for heresy.

"by their fruits you shall know them."

His Imperial Majesty Charles V at the Diet of Augsburg
in the year 1530
Article IX: Of Baptism.
3] They condemn the Anabaptists, who reject the baptism of children, and say that children are saved without Baptism.

Article V: Of the Ministry.
4] They condemn the Anabaptists and others who think that the Holy Ghost comes to men without the external Word, through their own preparations and works.

We owe those brave souls known as Ana-baptist a great debt of gratitude. They died for the faith and for truth. They helped break the chains of oppression that had become "christianity".

There is a great divide between Christian sects they just kill each other over it any more...but it's still there.

deleted from the JS version of the bible, it is too obvious.

Please provide proof of the existence of a "JS version of the bible."

Can you show me scripture that says the sun went down at noon the day Jesus died on the cross ???

There was darkness, but the sun did not go down at noon...

The sun didnt go anywhere...

Just darkness..that was not a darkness of night...or absense of the sun came ...

...and the DARKNESS He called NIGHT Genesis 1:5

Night in the Greek is nux..just meaning “night” or “midnight”

The darkness that was over the earth when Jesus died is not called NIGHT in the scriptures..

That DARKNESS is skotos in the Greek..from skia...

skia...shade, darkness of error, shadow

skotos...shadiness, obsurity, darkness

The Scriptures dont mention NIGHT or the absense of the sun...

Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. Matthew 27:45

And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. Mark 15:33

And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. Luke 23:44

Actually the sun does not “go down”

God knows how His solar system works He designed it...

God made the sun and set the planets twirling around it..

But the false prophet Joseph Smith didnt know that nor did he talk to God to find out .. more “worthy ignorance” ????

And so, you get all this dumb “interpretation”

The false prophet Joseph Smith taught there were people living on the moon and Brigham Young agreed and declared there were people living on the sun also...

According to Oliver B. Huntington, Joseph Smith taught that “The inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the earth, being about 6 feet in height.

“They dress very much like the Quaker style and are quite general in style, or fashion of dress.

“They live to be very old; coming generally, near a thousand years.

“This is the description of them as given by Joseph the seer, and he could `See’ whatever he asked the father in the name of Jesus to see,” (Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, Vol. 3, p. 166; as recorded at the Utah State Historical Society).

Oliver B. Huntington wrote the proceeding statement in 1881. In 1892 he made a similar statement in the Young Woman’s Journal, a church publication:

“Astronomers and philosophers have, from time almost immemorial until very recently, asserted that the moon was uninhabited, that it had no atmosphere, etc. But recent discoveries, through the means of powerful telescopes, have given scientists a doubt or two upon the old theory.

“Nearly all the great discoveries of man in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a Prophet.

“As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to be a greater age than we do, that they lived generally to near the age of 1000 years.

“He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style.

“In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet, in Kirtland, 1937, I was told that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants of the sea — to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can now behold with your eyes,” (Vol. 3, pp. 263-264).

“Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening called the moon? ...when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain,” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 217).

The false prophet Joseph Smith never bothered to consult god about anything that would bring a rebuke...

Jam 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. James 4:4, 5

God keeps no secrets ...

Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Jer 29:12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.

Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:11-13

Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not. Jeremiah 33:3

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Matthew 7:7, 8

That’s why Christians have confidence in God that mormons dont appear to understand..

Psa 116:1I love the LORD, because He hath heard my voice and my supplications.

Psa 116:2 Because He hath inclined his ear unto me, therefore will I call upon Him as long as I live. Psalm 116:1, 2

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jst/contents

Ironically, as with everything else, I simply use the LDS’s own materials...

Take this in the spirit intended, perhaps it is time to “go back to school” with your own faith, you maybe very surprised at what you find.

Oh my, you really aren't very informed about Mormonism are you?

Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible via google.

Obviously, according to certain FReepers, Mitt is to fulfill that dream that was cut off by the dastardly "martyrdom" of the prophet, and to "consecrate all he has or ever will have" (including the presidency) to the "building up of Zion upon the earth". Folks would do well to remember this.

Obviously? Name the "certain" FReepers to which you are referring. Give me at least two (you said FReeperS) Freeper names.

Again, you cannot expalin several things.

How can there be any inspired men of God from the time of your alleged "loss" of the word in this world until Joseph Smith (and from his time until now among non Mormon's). Your own words betray your position. The Word of God has lived with Men from the beginning of time, DEPITE the ills of the mortal world. Your own President praises men who should never have heard the Word of God because it was gone from this world until the “prophet” restored it.

We are not simply talking great individuals, but inspired men of God. If things were truly as you present, God would never have been heard by these men, for he was not talking to us until Joesph Smith came along according to the LDS doctrine.

You again seek division where there is none. Again I ask you, how can an ecumenical ministry made up of individuals from multiple denominations, all working to spread the same Good news of God's grace exist, and with the blessing and support of the various church authorities for each denomination, if we were “at war’ with each other.

The individual acts of a few men of power, directed by questionable motives and more than likely the spirit of the evil one does not the entire body and history of Christendom make. The stories of love and good works far out strip the evil done supposedly in his name, we are blessed with more men of goodwill and faith than were are of tyrants.

Like your question about the JS version of the Bible, perhaps it is time to look beyond what you have been taught and look into your heart, look into the true words of the Christ. You will find a far different, and ironically simpler lesson on the love and grace of our lord.

Your standards say, the Bible is false, by your standard.

Go ahead - try to tear down the Bible so your founder's tales sound better.

The light of Christ cannot be extinguished by the acts of mortal man no matter how brutal times may have been. Men of Christ carried on, endured through the mayhem foist upon the rapidly growing faith by the evil one.

You seem stuck on the concept that anyone calling themselves Christian is accepted by God and that's completely false.

And you completely missed the point of Amos 8. Amos doesn't refer to a time when no one will call themselves Christians. On the contrary he describes people actively searching the world for the (true) word of God and not finding it.

Amos describes it as a famine. And like any famine it has a start and an ending. Meaning that the true gospel would be brought back to the earth.

Revelation 11 discusses two prophets that will come before the second coming and be killed in Jerusalem. Modern churches teach their followers that there are no more prophets. Just like you do.

They will not have just sprung up out of no where. They will have been teaching for awhile. And if they are on the earth now, you're actively teaching people that these two prophets are false prophets...right? You're fighting against true prophets of God...
Man...that's not a place I'd want to be.

Kinda like laughing at Noah right before the rain starts ...ya know? Just a thought...

Odd that they would so obviously shoot themselves in the foot like that.

Here in Indiana, we've just had some foolish Wiccan STAB herself in the foot!

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=HPIC,HPIC:2005-18,HPIC:en&q=wiccan+stab+foot

By 4th century the true Gospel was gone.

Yes; that is the claim the LDS Organization® makes.

However; they have no - zip - nada - nothing to back up what they so boastfully assert.

Eventually all those "believers" in Ephesus turned against Paul.

They DID??!!??

Who knew!

They still called themselves "Christians". But they went off teaching their own thing and not the true gospel that Paul taught.

HMmmm...