Posted on 07/07/2008 10:39:05 PM PDT by Gamecock
A caller to our weekly radio program asked a question that has come up before: Are Roman Catholics saved? Let me respond to this as best I can. But I need to offer a qualifier because I think this is going to be somewhat dissatisfying for some because I am not going to say a simple "aye" or "nay." My answer is: It kind of depends. The reason I'm saying that is because of certain ambiguities.
My point is this, I think that in the area of the doctrine of salvation, Roman Catholic theology, as I understand it, is unbiblical because salvation depends on faith and works, not just faith alone. This was the specific problem Paul addressed in the book of Galatians and was the subject of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15: Is simple faith in Jesus adequate, or must gentile followers of Christ now keep the Law as a standard of acceptance before God?
I know not all Catholics would agree that this is a fair way of putting it, but I think that most Catholics would actually say the faith/works equation is accurate. Your faith and your works are what save you. I was raised Catholic and that’s what I was taught. (For my take on the biblical relationship between faith and works, see “Faith & Works: Paul vs. James.”)
Now, I need to add this too. Many Protestants feel the same way. Many Protestants are confused on this issue, so this is not a Catholic vs. Protestant concern so much. It's just that Catholicism across the board has more of an official position that amounts this, where Protestants have a more diversity of views, some that don't even seem to be consistent with Protestantism.
But the fact that one believes Jesus is the Messiah and that He is the savior, not our own efforts, is critical. If you reject this notion, like the Jews do, then as far as I can tell from the biblical revelation, there is no hope for you. That seems to be clear. But when somebody says they believe in Jesus and He is their Savior, but somehow works are mingled in with the picture, then I can't really say to you how much faith that person is putting in Jesus and how much faith that person is putting in their own efforts to satisfy God. If a person has all their faith in their own efforts, then they are going to be judged by their own efforts. It's as simple as that. If they have their faith in Jesus, they will be judged by the merits of Jesus. Anyone judged by their own merits is going to be found wanting. Anyone who is judged by the merits of Jesus is not going to be found wanting because Jesus is not wanting.
What if you are kind of a mixture? I think most Catholics are, frankly. Many Protestants are, as well.
I reflect often on a comment that was made by a friend of mine named Dennis. He was a Roman Catholic brother in Christ that I knew when I was a brand new Christian. He asked me this: "Greg, how much faith does it take to be saved?" I said, "A mustard seed." And he said, "There you go."
And so, it seems to me, there are many Christians—Protestant and Catholic—who believe in Jesus as their savior and have a mustard seed of faith, but are confused about the role of works. I think that Jesus is still Savior in those cases.
A smart man would wonder how something that has at least a 50-50 chance of sending a person to hell for all eternity could be called, by any stretch of the imagination, a "gift."
No, only a complete idiot would wonder that. It is not free will that sends souls to hell, but the evil choices they used their free will to make.
One thing for certain, a "Cafeteria Catholic" is nothing but a Catholic in name only (CINO).
To become a convert while rejecting two or three Dogma's is not being true to the Catholic Church or to yourself.
This is why they aren’t Catholics they read the Catechism the same way they read the Bible. A verse here, a paragraph there and they have whatever they want.
Why would any non-Catholic claim that? Christ only founded ONE church, the Catholic Church, with Peter I as His vicar.
Ultimately none of that matters. What matters is what God says in Scripture and makes come alive in your heart through the Holy Spirit.
May God lead your study.
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." -- John 6:63
What is the source and idea behind the Notre Dame gargoyles (picture please)?
You may be aware I have fiercely criticized idolatrous attitudes and behaviors even in Pentecostalism . . . and every other “Christian” -ism.
The one who posted XXV I-V and pointedly omitted VI.
You're correct, however, that the Reformation was waged on differences like this.
The Mother of God and the Saints are not dead.
Gothic architects believed that gargoyles were good ways to warn illiterate Christians.
lol. No one has to "prove" anything to the people participating on this thread.
It's just that comments with Scriptural support addressing the question are usually taken more seriously than posts without either comment or Scripture.
When all you do is bracket the Scripture I give with more Scripture, and offer no explanation as to why that should change the point I'm making, your post remains meaningless.
Indeed it is true that what anyone says, does not matter ultimately...,...but I take what people say, and then weigh it against, what I read in the Bible, and try to test it’s veracity.... and I do believe that what comes alive in my heart will be through the Holy Spirit....
But of course, regardless of which side I come down on, there will be those, with whom I disagree, who will say I was listening to a spirit other than the Holy Spirit, and there will be others, with whom I may agree, that will say, I was listening to the Holy Spirit....
And so it will go on...
Anyway thanks for your good wishes for me...
All who have been graced by God with true faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are members of His church.
I will study, I will read, I will consider others worthwhile discussions, and then with prayer, I will ask for guidance, and remain true to myself, and where I feel I am led to be...
I can’t tell you how many years it took me to make my decision because I don’t really know when it began because it was so subtle, I think it began long before I realized. It took me an additional 5 years of study and prayer after the firm decision before I actually took the big leap.
There were people who were pressuring me both ways and I ignored them.
You wrote:
Once again you have incorrectly stated that all Protestants dismiss the significance of Baptism.
I wrote:
NO Protestant dismisses the significance of Baptism.
And somehow, you changed the subject entirely, and veered into fantasyland by your strange response...
Incorrect, SOME Protestants DO NOT believe that Baptism removes Original Sin. I consider this dismissive.
Well, consider it dismissive all you want. Many Protesants do not believe baptism removes original sin. I never said otherwise.
None of that has anything to do with your bizarre comment that I said verbatim "all Protestants dismiss the significance of baptism."
Is this coming through on your computer?
NO PROTESTANT DISMISSES THE SIGNIFICANCE OF BAPTISM.
Can you hear me now?
You then make another strange comment...
This from someone who believes all Protestants believe as Calvinists do.
Wrong again.
MARKBSNR incorrectly stated that the majority of posters on this thread were Calvinists, and I proved him wrong. What you are hearing on this thread is the unity of the Protestant faith made up of a variety of denominations of Christ's church.
Most Protestants do not call themselves Calvinists.
Yet. 8~)
Still waiting for the proof.
The problem with that is percentage wise there are very few who would recognize the religion of Martin Luther anymore. It has been changed so profoundly as to not be recognizable in most Protestant churches.
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