Posted on 06/02/2008 8:01:12 PM PDT by annalex
If you want to be on the Catholic Theology for non-Catholics list but are not on it already, or if you are on it but do not want to be, let me know either publicly or privately.
This is an open thread. I invite all opinions and encourage clear posts on the topic.
On Salvation Outside the Catholic Church
The Great Heresies [Open]
SALVATION PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE
JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING
Hermits and Solitaries [Ecumenical]
“I invite all opinions”
Ok. That was REALLY, REALLY long.
Good post. Thank you.
Interesting. I didn’t know that Israel was considered a nation of priests. Chaulk up another parallel between Israel and Christ and His Church!
The greeks had a WORD for “priest”.
It is “hiereus”.
The fact that Paul never uses “hiereus” when outlining the offices of the Church should be an eye-opener for you.
“”But only God can forgive sins!” Well, that was the cry of the Pharisees when they saw Jesus forgive a man. But if you read Matthew’s gospel, you find out that Jesus did not forgive the sins in his divine capacity as God. He stated that the “Son of man” has authority on earth to forgive sins. And in Matthew 9:8, the crowd glorified God because, as the gospel-writer himself tells us, God had given such authority to men.
So men are instruments God uses to channel his own forgiveness. Jesus meant exactly what he said. His ministers have the power to forgive and retain sins, and my Protestant church was simply out of synch with the Bible on this point. Again, it made void the word of God by its human tradition of pretending this sacrament does not exist. In doing so, it warped the spiritual development of countless individuals.””
Interesting defense. So far as I know, the notion that the priest actually forgives sins in confession (as opposed to acting as a witness, etc with God doing the forgiving) is peculiar to the Latin Church. I don’t believe any of the particular churches in communion with Rome ascribe to it and I know Orthodoxy does not and never did. Do you know when this notion originally arose?
This is one of those issues which lends itself to (mis)interpretation. In Matthew 6:14 Jesus is quoted as saying "For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you."
He was speaking to the disciples but the people could also hear Him (cf Mat 7:28). This was clearly intended for all (Mat 6:14 follows immediately the Lord's Prayer), and suggests not only that everyone can forgive sins, but that it is imperative to forgive sins if you want your own sins forgiven!
However, at other places (cf Mark 4:4, Luke 3:3, 17:3, 17:4, 24:47, Act 2:38, 5:31, 8:22; notice no Matthew, John or Paul in this) the Bible makes it very clear that repentance must proceed forgiveness. No one is to give blanket forgiveness without repentance.
In the early Church, confessions were made publicly and therefore anyone who heard a man's confession could forgive him according to this rule.
When confessions became private, this was confined to the realm of the priesthood. The condition (forgiveness is not unconditional!) is still repentance which is what confession is.
I believe the Church finds the authority granted to priesthood specifically in John 20:23, where Jesus, having breathed the Holy Spirit (i.e. the power of God, as the Jews understood it), says to the eleven disciples "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."
It is an empowerment (authority granted) to forgive sins. They are not the Sheriff, but His deputies, and act on His authority, the way a priest acts on the authority of a bishop.
In other places, the Bible states that forgiveness is incumbent on faith. Does this mean those who do not repent have no faith?
In other places, forgiveness is associated with love and tiered (!): "her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little" [Luke 7:47].
Of course, we can all see how love, faith and repentance are different forms of one and the same Christian mindset and one cannot exist without the other, although in all of us somewhat imperfectly.
Ultimately, forgiveness has to come from the heart of the one who forgives. If I forgive someone and remember their sins no more, it is forgiven. What God does with it is His prerogative. But if the intention is pure and not a formality, not a pretense, the forgiveness is real and you are no longer burdened by the sins of others.
The "priesthood" (as in ordained priesthood) in those days consisted of elders (bishops) and heir deacons (disciples). Priest are introduced towards the end of the first century (which is why Paul doesn't mention it; and that historical fact should be an eye-opener for you) because the Church became too wide-spread for one bishop and needed deputies. Priests act only under the authority of an apostolic successor, a bishop.
******************
Amen.
>> The greeks had a WORD for “priest”. It is “hiereus”. The fact that Paul never uses “hiereus” when outlining the offices of the Church should be an eye-opener for you.
<<
The word, “PREIST” comes directly from the Greek word, “PRESbyter.” What you might, instead, say is that in the letter to the Hebrews, a different word is used for the High Priest (archaeiereus, or ‘iereus), whose role Christ has fulfilled, than is used for the role that Paul appoints people to.
Protestants have argued that Christ abolished the priests referred to in Hebrews. Akin could point out your argument and simply defeat that Protestant argument, but the truth is that Catholic priests do in some ways act like such priests in Hebrews, since they re-enact the sacrifice of Christ by offering their lives for the congregants. So such an argument would be effective, but shallow.
The greater point made by many Protestants is that he Christian notion of a “priesthood of the people” means that there is no set-aside role for anyone with such authority. (This always seemed to me to be a silly argument, since they go and create such leaders, and simply call them “pastors” instead.) But we find that Paul did, in fact, do exactly that.
You'll agree, Kosta, that presbyter, as a separate office from a bishop , emerged only after several decades, but that when Paul uses the term, "presbyter," he is using the term to describe the role of a priest, (that is, one who PRESides over a mass) even if that role is performed by one who is also a bishop, right?
Excellent post.
"He Called Them Forward" [Roger Cardinal Mahony]
Archbishop Burke to ordain nine to priesthood after making vocations 'top priority'
Vatican says prohibition against gays in seminaries is universal [Open]
The Male Priesthood: The Argument From Sacred Tradition
Priests: Ordinary Men Made Extraordinary by Grace [Holy Orders/Chrism Mass]
Book on Mary turns runaway youngster immersed in drugs and crime into a priest
The Nature of Priestly Ordination: Theological Background and Some Present Concerns
Priesthood Sunday -- October 28th -- Serra Club [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
The Priesthood of Jesus Christ - Body and Blood (Confessional ... Consecration ... and Calvary)
What You {Catholics} Need to Know: Celibacy [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
New priest finds joy in sacrifice
No shortage of priests in Atlanta, more than 50 seminarians
Debt, the Vocation Killer [Catholic Caucus]
Identical twins become Green Bay priests
A Modern Roman Rite Priest reports on Classical Roman Rite Training
Number of new priests expected to rise in 2007
Father, Mother, Sister, Brother [Part One of a series on Celibacy] -- Catholic Caucus
It Takes a Village of Vocations [Part Two of a series on Celibacy] -- Catholic Caucus
Living Single and Celibate in God’s Service [Part Three of a series on Celibacy] -- Catholic Caucus
Brothers and Sisters in Christ [Part Four of a series on Celibacy] -- Catholic Caucus
The Adventure of the Priesthood [Part Five of a series on Celibacy] -- Catholic Caucus
This Is the Body of Christ [Part Six of a series on Celibacy and Vocations] -- Catholic Caucus
14 men are ordained into the priesthood (at St. Patrick's Cathedral NYC)
To Know, To Love, To Lead (Pope Benedict XVI ordains 22 new priests)
The Indispensable Priesthood -- Holy Thursday, [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
Why Does the Catholic Church Ordain Only Men to the Priesthood? Part Three[Cath/Orth/Angl Caucus]
Why Does the Catholic Church Ordain Only Men to the Priesthood? Part Two
Why Does the Catholic Church Ordain Only Men to the Priesthood? Part One [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
Vatican Said (Again!) Not Revising Celibacy Rule
Lesson 21: Holy Matrimony and Holy Orders BY FATHER ROBERT ALTIER
Common Sense for an Uncommon Calling
RC Archdiocese, Lahore Pakistan, Ordains Largest Class of New Priests
BWAAAAAHAAAAA!
See Kosta (9) and Dangus (11).
Ther is no such notion in the Church, and Akin is not advancing it. He states that priests are "instruments God uses to channel his own forgiveness", in line with the Bible ("whose sins you forgive, etc."), and the patristic teaching on it:
CHRYS. Some say that by breathing He did not give them the Spirit, but made them meet to receive the Spirit. For if Daniel's senses were so overpowered by the sight of the Angel, how would they have been overwhelmed in receiving that unutterable gift, if He had not first prepared them for it! It would not be wrong however to say that they received then the gift of a certain spiritual power, not to raise the dead and do miracles, but to remit sins: Whosoever sins you remit, they are remitted to them, and whosoever sins you retain, they are retained.AUG. The love of the Church, which is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, remits the sins of those who partake of it; but retains the sins of those who do not. Where then He has said, Receive you the Holy Ghost, He instantly makes mention of the remission and retaining of sins.
GREG. We must understand that those who first received the Holy Ghost, for innocence of life in themselves, and preaching to a few others, received it openly after the resurrection, that they might profit not a few only, but many. The disciples who were called to such works of humility, to what a height of glory are they led! Lo, not only have they salvation for themselves, but are admitted to the powers of the supreme Judgment-seat; so that, in the place of God, they retain some men's sins, and remit others. Their place in the Church, the Bishops now hold; who receive the authority to bind, when they are admitted to the ram; of government. Great the honor, but heavy the burden of the place. It is ill if one who knows not how to govern his own life, shall be judge of another's.
CHRYS. A priest though he may have ordered well his own life, yet, if he have not exercised proper vigilance over others, is sent to hell with the evil doers. Wherefore, knowing the greatness of their danger, pay them all respect, even though they be not men of notable goodness. For they who are in rule, should not be judged by those who are under them. And their incorrectness of life will not at all invalidate what they do by commission from God. For not only cannot a priest, but not even angel or archangel, do any thing of themselves; the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost do all. The priest only furnishes the tongue, and the hand. For it were not just that the salvation of those who come to the Sacraments in faith, should be endangered by another's wickedness.
This is the Catechism on this matter:
Only God forgives sin1441 Only God forgives sins.39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.41
1442 Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the "ministry of reconciliation."42 The apostle is sent out "on behalf of Christ" with "God making his appeal" through him and pleading: "Be reconciled to God."43
...
1444 In imparting to his apostles his own power to forgive sins the Lord also gives them the authority to reconcile sinners with the Church. This ecclesial dimension of their task is expressed most notably in Christ's solemn words to Simon Peter: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."45 "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head."46
...
1449 The formula of absolution used in the Latin Church expresses the essential elements of this sacrament: the Father of mercies is the source of all forgiveness. He effects the reconciliation of sinners through the Passover of his Son and the gift of his Spirit, through the prayer and ministry of the Church:
- God, the Father of mercies,
through the death and the resurrection of his Son
has reconciled the world to himself
and sent the Holy Spirit among us
for the forgiveness of sins;
through the ministry of the Church
may God give you pardon and peace,
and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.48
39 Cf. Mk 2:7.
40 Mk 2:5,10; Lk 7:48.
41 Cf. Jn 20:21-23.
42 2 Cor 5:18.
43 2 Cor 5:20.
44 Cf. Lk 15; 19:9.
45 Mt 16:19; cf. Mt 18:18; 28:16-20.
46 LG 22 § 2.
47 Tertullian, De Paenit. 4,2:PL 1,1343; cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1542.
48 OP 46: formula of absolution.
“...and I absolve you from your sins....”
No other priests say this save the Latin ones to my knowledge. If what Rome means is the patristic understanding, then I suspect Rome could say that. Your patristic quotes are fine, Alex, but it doesn’t change what the Latin priest says. It all reminds me of the arguments about the filioque where Rome posits that it means something other than what it says.
This is tautological: no other priest uses Latin prayers (translated or not) save Latin Rite priests. You have to look at the entire prayer, including the "may God give you pardon" and "in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". The absolution formula does not reflect anything not inthe Catechism, and the Catechism does not reflect anything not in the Bible.
Let me ask you this: suppose Stavros comes to his Orthodox priest and confesses that he lives and shares the bed with his girlfriend despite being married to another woman who he had abandoned. He has no intention to move out or move the girlfriend out. How would the priest witness the lack of absolution without himself, as a free-willed man, taking the decision not to absolve?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.