THE PRIESTHOOD DEBATE

EWTN ^ | 4/1/1996 | James Akin

[Kolokotronis]

“How would the priest witness the lack of absolution without himself, as a free-willed man, taking the decision not to absolve?”

That’s easy, Alex. He simply would not read the absolution prayers. The priest does not absolve; he is merely a witness and a conduit as the words of the Mystery make clear. If God is doing the absolving in the Latin Rite of the Mystery, why does the priest say “Absolvo te”? No other rite makes that presumption. Personally, I think it has to do with, among other things, a different concept of the meaning of priesthood as between the Latins on the one hand and the other particular churches within The Church on the other.

[annalex]

why does the priest say “Absolvo te”?

Because, just like an Orthodox priest, he made the decision to absolve, and just like Stavros' priest he could make the decision not to absolve if the penitent lacked proper disposition.

[Kolokotronis]

“Because, just like an Orthodox priest, he made the decision to absolve, and just like Stavros’ priest he could make the decision not to absolve if the penitent lacked proper disposition.”

Alex, the Orthodox priests do not “absolve”; God does. There was a period of time when Russian priests, under Latin influence, did say words to the effect that they were “absolving” in place of Christ (which is a rather “unOrthodox “ notion in itself for an Orthodox parish priest) but that has stopped if I recall correctly.

[annalex]

So you are arguing over words. The Latin priest, just like the Orthodox priest makes a decision to do X or Y. If he does X, the penitent’s sin are forgiven by God. If he does Y, not.

I don’t even know how to translate “absolve” into Russian. “Otpustit” is literally “release”. Maybe that? “Otpuschenie grekhov” is a very common Russian phrase, but I would translate it as “forgiveness of sins”.

[Iscool]

Which wasn't for very long...

Ha!!! God didn't show this guy much in the past, why would people think God showed him anything now???

He twists the scripture, distorts it...Like all good folks of his ilk, he starts with a conclusion then trys to make the scripture fit the conclusion...Another joke...

[vladimir998]

Alex,

Sometimes, when I read your posts, I can’t help but come away with the impression that you’re a bitter man.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Another joke...”

What? It’s such a joke that you can’t refute it?

[Alex Murphy]

Sometimes, when I read your posts, I can’t help but come away with the impression that you’re a bitter man.

I come across as bitter? How can that be, when I'm laughing so much?

[andysandmikesmom]

I am on a number of Catholic ping lists, but I do not think that I am on this particular ping list..actually this particular ping list, this ‘Catholic theology for non-Catholic series’ would be of great interest to me, as I am not a Catholic...so please, if I am not already on this list(which is what I believe to be the truth), please put me on this list...if I am already on this ping list, sorry to have bothered you...being as I am on so many ping lists on FR, sometimes I dont remember them all...thanks...

[annalex]

You are on, and even at the alphabetical head of it. You were not before. Thank you for your interest.

[annalex]

I generally ignore irony, bitterness, or any other mood-posts, and in fact I would rather people did not make them on my threads. However, if you or anyone have a reasoned question or comment on the topic on hand, I will almost certainly answer it in all seriousness.

[andysandmikesmom]

Thanks very much for putting me on this ping list, and also many thanks for confirming that my recollections, that I was not previously on this list, were correct...as I age further into my senior years, I find I forget a little more than I used to, here and there....

Since I am not a Catholic, but am contemplating studying to become a Catholic, these types of threads are very informative for me...

Many, many thanks for everything...

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“I come across as bitter?”

Yes.

“How can that be, when I’m laughing so much?”

Think of Job 17:2 in the Bible in Basic English translation: “Truly, those who make sport of me are round about me, and my eyes become dark because of their bitter laughing.”

BITTER LAUGHING.

If the shoe fits...

[vladimir998]

I don’t want this thread to become about Alex so that’s all I’ll say about it.

[big'ol_freeper]

You said: Sometimes, when I read your posts, I can’t help but come away with the impression that you’re a bitter man.

And here I thought it was only me who had the observation.

[annalex]

Thanks. These are all diversions; they should be ignored.

[kosta50]

Alex, the Orthodox priests do not “absolve”; God does. There was a period of time when Russian priests, under Latin influence, did say words to the effect that they were “absolving” in place of Christ (which is a rather “unOrthodox “ notion in itself for an Orthodox parish priest) but that has stopped if I recall correctly

Alex, Kolo is 100% correct. This is what the priest says before the prayer of absolution:

"My spiritual child, thou who hast confessed to my unworthy self, I, a humble sinner, have not the power to forgive sins on earth but God alone can do this. Through that divine voice which came to the apostles after the Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and said, 'Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted,' etc., we, trusting in it, say, 'Whatsoever thou hast confessed to my deepest unworthiness and whatsoever thou hast omitted to say either through ignorance or forgetfulness, whatever it may be, God forgive thee in the present world and in that which is to come.' "

The priest then reads the Prayer of Absolution while placing the corner of his stole over the penitent's head. The prayer says:

"O God, who, through Nathan the Prophet, forgave the sins of David after he confessed them, and to Peter, bitterly weeping, his denial, and to the harlot, shedding tears at His feet, and to the publican and the prodigal, may the same God forgive thee, through me a sinner, all thy sins in this world and in that which is to come, and may He establish thee uncondemned before His fearful judgment seat. Without anxiety for thy confessed transgressions go in peace."

Then placing the cross on the head of the penitent, the priest says:

"May our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, by the grace and compassion of His love toward mankind forgive thee, O spiritual son [name], all thy transgression. And I, His unworthy priest, by the power which was given to me by Him, I say to thee that thou art forgiven and absolved of all thy sins, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."

The priest is merely stating that the penitent's sins have been forgiven by God.

I think there is a qualitative difference in "I absolve" and "Your sins are forgiven [by God]." But, as Kolo observed earlier, we see priests as an icon of Christ; the Latins see a priest as "alter Christus" (another Christ). Apples and oranges.

[annalex]

No question that the Orthodox wording is different in tone, but still, the decision to read or not read the absolution prayer is the priest’s, so the difference is not of essence: either way, the priest makes a human decision and relies on God to deliver on it.

Does the Orthodox penitent know that his sin has been absolved, or is he left woandering if God heard the absolution prayer and agreed with it?

In what way, do you think, Alter Christus is different than Icon of Christ?

[Alex Murphy]

Think of Job 17:2 in the Bible in Basic English translation: “Truly, those who make sport of me are round about me, and my eyes become dark because of their bitter laughing.” BITTER LAUGHING. If the shoe fits...

Shoes don't fit. I have to ask in return whether that quotation means that your eyes have "become dark"?

[Gamecock]

***I would rather people did not make them on my threads***

On your threads?

How do we know who is posting? Are you Anna or Lex? Do both of you feel this way? Does one speak for the other?

This is an open thread so according to the rules, this is like a smoky back room. As long as there is no personal attacks, it’s all good.

In fact P-marlowe could institute a Neener takeover... ;-)