Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Which was that, the logic or the reasoned reply?
There’s another great example of the logic and/or truth.
This coming from a believer in an institution built on lies such as:
The False Decretals
The Donation of Constantine
APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTIONS
LIBER PONTIFICALIS
to name a very few of many.
Another reasoned response.
The Living Word Christ Jesus is MORE THAN SUFFICIENT.
If by that you mean the Bible, how is an inanimate book, in any sense "living?"
The Bible is the recorded Word of the Living God. The words within the Book have been kept intact for thousands of years, long before the RCC was ever thought of.
For it is written:
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (e-Sword: KJV) Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not...
One who would diminish the Holy Word diminishes the very contract that gives him life. He diminishes the Covenants which, given by God Himself to mankind, instruct us in what is pleasing to God, what is required by God, and the warnings He gives to those who refuse to live according to His will.
What man has the right to add to or subtract from the very words of Almighty Jehovah? Who would think to make them null? Who would not call them holy beyond all things on earth? No mortal man has that authority, and the only Man who does have that authority would not do so, as He said.
No. I'm sorry. There isn't. The Bible is a book. It is not alive. Christ is alive. Christ is The Word.
Is it your position that Christ would change a single word that came before Him?
Making a book that can not speak or reason into Christ's voice on earth is not what He instituted: it's what men instituted. What poppycock! It is your position that Christ never assumed His words would be written down?
When they did so in obedience. Those who use Scripture and God's Word to subvert obedience to God are known as apostates.
Obedience? Is it Christ's will that we bow down before statues? Is it Christ's will that the statue of "Peter" has it's foot worn down by the lips of men? Is it His will that there be incense and miters, gold and silver, the "inculturation" of pagan rites into the church that bears His Name? Was it by His will that hundreds of millions of people were murdered in His name?
It is fitting and just to rebel against such as these. God does NOT change, and what He said to do before is fitting for a Protestant to do to the RCC:
Hos 2:2 Plead with your mother, plead: for she is not my wife, neither am I her husband: let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts;
Your claim that the Catholic Church was built on these documents is absurd.
Setting aside the RCC, whatever that is, the Old Testament predates the Catholic Church, but the New Testament was breathed by God into the Fathers of the Catholic Church: Sts. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, etc.
Of course not. The Catholic Church is not implicated in hundreds of millions of murders.
INDEED.
Please, you have a standing invitation to comment on any posting I’m involved in.
What man has the right to add to or subtract from the very words of Almighty Jehovah? Who would think to make them null? Who would not call them holy beyond all things on earth? No mortal man has that authority, and the only Man who does have that authority would not do so, as He said.
AMEN!
The RCC seems to nullify the very reason God gave us the Scriptures -- to guide us in all truth and love. The RCC takes this gift of God, made sure and fast by the black and white written word of God, the "sword of the Spirit," and transmutes it into the changing, ever morphing, quixotic opinions of men and magisteriums.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." -- Romans 10:12-17"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Profound.
Christ gave us the Catholic Church and the Holy Scriptures to guide us all in truth and love.
The RCC takes this gift of God, made sure and fast by the black and white written word of God, the "sword of the Spirit," and transmutes it into the changing, ever morphing, quixotic opinions of men and magisteriums.
Too bad for the RCC, whatever that is.
The Catholic Church brings us the whole of Revelation: Scripture and Tradition:
II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE
One common source. . .80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41. . . two distinct modes of transmission81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."4382 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."4483 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus' teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.
Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church's Magisterium.
I have raised beds...err, well actually my spouse does. I don’t spend much time out in the veggie garden. She has had great success growing stuff using that approach. I do my part by eating what she grows.
Now if I could just get her to grow some hops....
[40] For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
[44] No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
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