The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

Sorry to be the cause of more outrage for you, but I think some of what you wrote needs to be addressed.

The Living Word Christ Jesus is MORE THAN SUFFICIENT.

If by that you mean the Bible, how is an inanimate book, in any sense "living?"

There is more than sufficient Biblical justification for a very close identification of the written text with THE LIVING WORD CHRIST JESUS.

No. I'm sorry. There isn't. The Bible is a book. It is not alive. Christ is alive. Christ is The Word. Christ is not a book. Making a book that can not speak or reason into Christ's voice on earth is not what He instituted: it's what men instituted.

Such a brazen all-inclusive statement against the SUFFICIENCY of the Written text . . . is an outrageously brazen affront to God's Word and thereby to The Living Word Christ Jesus--WHO IS OUR ALL SUFFICIENCY as Scripture makes clear.

Nope. I'm sorry. It's a book, not Christ.

Throughout His Word, He affirms folks treating His Word as straight from His mouth with great blessedness.

When they did so in obedience. Those who use Scripture and God's Word to subvert obedience to God are known as apostates.

He was fiercely harsh with the RELIGIOUS BUREAUCRATIC MAGICSTERICAL 2000 years ago which PRESUMED TO TELL GOD what GOD meant and how their mangling of His Word was more righteous than God was.

But they didn't have the Holy Spirit: we do. Now those who would fancy themselves as walking in Christ's sandals are simply malcontent rebels.

“Folks that believe such as said individual are ignorant beyond description and will meet a toasty demise for their lack of understanding on the origins of the True Church. And all the prayers of like minded charlatans and misguided followers will be in vain.’”
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This is the kind of pronouncement I’ve been waiting to hear for a long time. It appears to say (did I get it right?) that anyone with a lack of understanding on the origins of [I presume, a particular, earthly, visible {?}] church will meet a “toasty demise.”

Does this refer to burning someone at the stake?

It had happened by the thousands in history, for the very same reason, so I’m just asking for clarification. I’m not suggesting anyone is planning on doing anything like that . . . this week.

And it’s too late, really, to bar answers to prayer, as millions who have never been a member of any particular earthly, visible, church (but are saved and in Christ — so they are members of the Church which is Christ’s Body {Ephesians 1:17-23}) have been experiencing answers to their prayers for 2,000 years.

Sorry to be the cause of more outrage for you, but I think some of what you wrote needs to be addressed.

The Living Word Christ Jesus is MORE THAN SUFFICIENT.

If by that you mean the Bible, how is an inanimate book, in any sense "living?"

I believe there is some mystery there that no mortal can answer. Perhaps Alamo-Girl or betty boop can do a better job than I.

1. The ink and wood pulp/onion skin is not what I'm talking about here when I speak of The Bible.
2. I'm speaking of the words--THE CONTENT.
3. And THE WORDS, THE CONTENT are inextricably, somehow, indivisively VERY CONNECTED to--INDEED--PART AND PARCEL OF--THE LIVING WORD JESUS THE CHRIST.

I'm reminded of a time in my Mother's Father's bedroom. I think he'd been taken to the hospital and she feared for his life. I was probably 4-5 years old or some such. Mother in her inimitable style part suggested, led and part demanded that I LITERALLY stand with her on top of a large Bible she'd placed on the floor.

Our task was to STAND ON THE WORD OF GOD--STAND ON THE PROMISES OF GOD--AND BELIEVE FOR HER FATHER'S LIFE. We did so and prayed accordingly.

Did She have some sort of obtuse pagan faith in the ink and wood pulp? Not at all. It was her very demonstrative way of showing God and satan both that she was going to STAND ON GOD'S PROMISES--TRUST GOD FOR HER FATHER'S LIFE.

BTW, he lived. 5-6 years later, the evening after we'd caught him his favorite--a catfish, by our bare hands in a shallow part of the San Juan river . . . he came down to chat a bit and watch me while I fed the cow. He'd never done that before. I KNEW instantly and forcefully (no doubt)that it would be the last time I'd see him alive. Sure enough, he fell over dead walking across his dining room floor the next morning at age 57.

The ink on paper is not the issue. The CONTENT, THE DEMONSTRABLY LIVING WORDS !ARE! SOMEHOW PART AND PARCEL OF JESUS THE CHRIST. CERTAINLY The Father, His angels and Holy Spirit insure that the WORDS ARE LIGHT AND LIFE to all who trust THE WORDS AS THE LIVING WORDS, CHRIST JESUS' SPOKEN LIFE--VERY LIFE.

There is more than sufficient Biblical justification for a very close identification of the written text with THE LIVING WORD CHRIST JESUS.

THAT'S CRUCIALLY INACCURATE, WRONG, FALSE, NOT TRUE . . . whether I can articulate it, well, or not.

Man had nothing to do with instituting it. It's just a fact of CREATION, OF ALL THAT IS. It's a fact of The Father's design vis a vis The Son without Whom was nothing Created.

The CONTENT of Scripture IS indivisively, inextricably, evidently somewhat mysteriously, part and parcel of THE LIVING WORD CHRIST JESUS.

Nope. I'm sorry. It's a book, not Christ.

Of course the book is not Christ. Yet, somehow, THE CONTENT IS PART AND PARCEL OF CHRIST And Father’s Angels and Holy Spirit INSURE that child-like faith confidently trusting the CONTENT OF SCRIPTURE results in the same dramatic effects as trusting God’s spoken Word in Jerusalem and Capernum 2000 years ago.

The Book is not Christ. Yet, Christ is IN the CONTENT. The CONTENT is IN Christ. The CONTENT TRUSTED IN CHILD-LIKE FAITH is the same as trusting CHRIST FACE-TO FACE. Actually, Scripture—GOD SAYS—IT’S GREATER.

Throughout His Word, He affirms folks treating His Word as straight from His mouth with great blessedness.

When they did so in obedience.

It doesn’t USUALLY take miraculous obedience to simply READ GOD’S WORD; TAKE GOD’S WORD AT FACE VALUE AS HOLY SPIRIT LEADS AND TRUST GOD’S WORD AS GOD’S WORD. That takes Child-like faith and, often enough, stepping out of the boat in Child-like faith.

Those who use Scripture and God's Word to subvert obedience to God are known as apostates.

I have not observed any Prottys doing such a thing regarding any of the Mary/RC org issues on this thread. I’ve frequently observed some RC’s do that. And to the degree that such a judgment has been ungodly, they shall likely stumble or even fall, greatly lacking, by their own judgment.

He was fiercely harsh with the RELIGIOUS BUREAUCRATIC MAGICSTERICAL 2000 years ago which PRESUMED TO TELL GOD what GOD meant and how their mangling of His Word was more righteous than God was.

But they didn't have the Holy Spirit: we do. Now those who would fancy themselves as walking in Christ's sandals are simply malcontent rebels.

All who earnestly seek God’s face find Him. All who have received Christ’s Blood covering as Salvation and covering for their sins have some measure of Holy Spirit leading them; seeking to lead them into closer fellowship and obedience to Him.

I observe no malcontent rebels amongst the Prottys on this thread.

There do appear to be some RC’s who might fit that label. It is rebellious to invest worship, undue focus, undue attention, undue affection toward any Created thing, ritual, organization, idea, practice, tradition or person save GOD ALONE.

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