Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
We need to explain it. The problem lies in situations where some non-Catholics are either genuinely ignorant, or choose to continue believing what they had before concerning Catholics.
It makes our job of evangelization harder... but it's still our job.
The problem is, how do you know it’s “OK”? That in fact is the question being debated, and saying it’s “OK” is not an argument.
Admittedly, I was not a very good Catholic. I didn’t take faith seriously as a youth.
God accepted me, warts and all, in my 20’s.
Just because Pope Pius XII declared the Dogma of Assumption in 1950 doesn't mean it materialized out of nowhere. The Eastern Orthodox also believe Mary's body is in Heaven, but they only hold it to be a pious belief.
Actions speak louder than words and every time I have seen a Catholic communicate with Mary it has been through prayer.
Jesus taught me to pray DIRECTLY to God. Mathew 6:6 His teachings do not include praying to Angels or Saints or Mary. In fact, in the Greek texts, the emphasis is to pray ONLY to God. There is no teaching of going to others for prayer other than praying one for another and cooperate or group prayer of the living to God.
Jesus also taught to not utter repetitious prayer as I have so often seen Catholics do ... as in saying X number of hail Marys. Mathew 6:7
The direct contradiction of the teachings of Jesus is one of the primary reasons I will not follow the Catholic faith.
But Martin Luthor is not infallible. He’s not even the Pope. So what difference does it make what parts of Catholic tradition he clung to as he spoke against things like paying the church to get out of purgatory?
Learn the Rite of the Mass. The Missal, which has the prayers, is a very important tool. Before the Mass starts, find a) The penitential rite b) the Gloria and c) the profession of faith (the Nicene Creed)
That way, when each of those prayers starts, you can find the words to them. I think the penitential rite and the Gloria are on page 5-6-7. The Nicene Creed is on page 12 (I think), but it might be page 112.
Also, whenever the Priest says “The Lord be with you”, remember to say “and also with you.” Whenever the Holy Trinity is invoked, make the large Sign of the Cross. Before the third reading, (The Gospel reading) make the small sign of your cross over your forehead, your lips and your heart
The Catholic church isn’t stupid. They worked really hard on their traditions. But that scripture really shows no indication that we are to ask Mary to intercede. In fact, if I were to take that as more than what it is, and try to read some deep theology into it, I’d say Jesus was pretty upset that somebody went to his mother instead of just asking him directly.
That's true, reform was needed, not on the scale of the "Reformation" however. IOW, the "Reformers" shouldn't have left the Church, especially after the Council of Trent addressed the issue of concern they raised, (specifically, the abuse of indulgences).
The sale of indulgences needed to be stopped and it was, formally, by Trent. Also, it's important to remember that the sale of indulgences was NEVER official church practice (that is, it wasn't the practice of the Universal (Catholic) Church). It was the practice of some overzealous priests and bishops who wanted to raise money quickly for the construction of the Basilica of St. Peter.
The church is standing, praise God, and will continue to do so, despite the pride of some, like "Johnny #1", that leads astray.
Thanks. Good read.
If you pray to Mary, and her response is “do whatever Jesus tells you to do”, what’s the point — we alreay knew to do what Jesus tells us to do.
And taking the story literally, if we pray to Mary, and she goes to Jesus, and he says “Woman, what have I to do with thee?”, it doesn’t sound like it’s very helpful, especially when she comes back to us and says “Just do whatever he says, he won’t listen to me”.
I dispute your 'empirical evidence lacking'... There is a location noted to be the tomb of Mary. It is empty. The early Christians took great pains to know where the bodies of early Saints and Martyrs were buried, yet there is no record of where Mary's body is, nor are there any relics of her body. In addition, the Orthodox believe in the Dormition, which is very very similar to the Assumption, despite their being separate from the Catholics nearly a thousand years before the dogma was proclaimed.
Ultra Sonic... these sorts of issues is why Cardinal Newman's Essay is so important to understand (or at least be aware of).
He said "vain repetition." It is you who set yourself up as judge of the vanity of the prayers of others.
In my Bible, the story ends with Jesus making wine. How does your story end?
That's because Jesus died for us, once for all. Why would we have another sacrifice, much less do it regularly?
I was responding to the person who wrote the piece. Not to anyone else. I wasn’t debating anything.
But that's not how the story in Scripture goes. Mary noting the lack of wine (or being made aware of it) asked Jesus. He responded to her, then she told a third party, the servants (essentially, the kitchen crew) to do whatever Jesus told THEM to do.
And taking the story literally, if we pray to Mary, and she goes to Jesus, and he says “Woman, what have I to do with thee?”, it doesn’t sound like it’s very helpful, especially when she comes back to us and says “Just do whatever he says, he won’t listen to me”.
But that's not what it says literally in English. or Latin. or Greek. The members of the wedding party never asked Jesus directly, NOR did the servants ask what they should do. There's nothing about Mary saying "he won't listen to me" or anything similar.
Post-death circumstances have always been a point of disagreement.
I believe the scriptures teach that the spirit of those who die in salvation are in Heaven immediately, and their bodies rise at the last day.
Before Jesus’ death, the spirit of those who were saved were in Hades, waiting for Jesus to lead the captives out of captivity and into heaven.
I have no opinion as to those who were “taken up”, I figure we’ll all know for certain when we get there.
Of course, I don’t pray to the spirit of the dead, but if I were going to do so, I’d pray to one that I knew from life, not somebody that some church labeled a “Saint”.
At least, that’s what I think I’d do, it’s hard to know since I would never think to pray to the spirit of the dead, just as I would never think to listen to the dead.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.