The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[Campion]

Prayer is an act of worship that can only be directed at the object of worship.

"Prayer" is simply making a request. In fact, in archaic English (still used by lawyers!), they're the same thing, which is why you "pray" a court for redress. (No, you are not offering idolatrous worship to the judge.)

In some other languages, the word for "pray" and "ask" are still the same.

Offering sacrifice is intrinsically an act of worship, and can only be offered to God. That's why Catholics don't offer any sacrifices to Mary, and that's why we rejected as heretical an obscure Arabian sect (called Collyridianism) which did.

[vpintheak]

No it probably wasn’t. Christ was separating her from Himself. She was a woman like us, blessed to have been the earth mother of Jesus. She should be respected for that. Anything else really is heresy.

[Campion]

The worship or adoration of Mary is rooted in the longing for a female deity to balance out the male deity.

Well, since Mary isn't a "deity," I guess she didn't meet the "longing" very well, did she?

The Romans needed a female deity to assuage the heathen masses and so Mary was elevated to that exalted perch.

So how did the Armenians and Ethiopians, who were never under Rome in any capacity, end up with their deep reverence for Mary?

[Campion]

Christ was separating her from Himself.

I think you need to re-read Genesis 3.

[ChurtleDawg]

I understand fully, but I think it is better to avoid the term because it is so easily misinterpreted, by Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

well-meaning people often get the wrong idea of what the Catholic Church is about, and this superficial misunderstanding might keep people from joining the Church, or at least inquiring more deeply.

Another instance is the role and power of the pope, because many popes mis-used their power during the middle ages and lived sinful lives and almost universal misunderstanding of the difference between doctrine and dogma.

Many protestant think that Catholics look to the pope as some spiritual overlord telling them what to think

[Retired Greyhound]

I am just recounting my experience. Perhaps it is the church I attended. They told me that I would not understand the Bible because I was not of the cloth.

I do have opinions on the matter, but harbor no ill-will or resentment towards anyone. Jesus is important.

You are right that I have much to lean.

[Pyro7480]

Thank you, Mr. Modern Secular Anthropologist.

[ChurtleDawg]

nonsense. This is a continuation of the Hislop “2 Babylons” theory that has been re-buked over and over and over again.

You are making a conjecture here and have NO solid evidence to prove it.

[GCC Catholic]

I’m about to start going to a Catholic Church. But I know I won’t be a Catholic for a while, until I learn more.

That's ok, just hang in there and keep learning.

Here are some quotes to take on the way:
- "Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt." -- Ven. John Henry Cardinal Newman
- "There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church." -- Abp. Fulton J. Sheen

(That brings me to another potentially good resource for you: Cardinal Newman's "Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine"... he wrote it to examine how doctrines grew over time. While writing it, his reasearch led him to realize that "to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant," paving his way to eventually joining the Catholic Church.)

[Antoninus]

To Catholics, prayer is not quite the same, in that is merely ‘speaking spiritually’...or something to that degree. Prayer can be a form of worship, but not always?

In truth, "prayer" is merely a petition, as in, "I pray you, pass the butter." It's not worship at all and never has been. Those who equate prayer with worship either 1.) do not understand what worship is or 2.) do not understand what prayer is.

In my mind, there is absolutely no difference between asking my mother to pray for me when I'm having a problem, and asking the Blessed Mother to pray for me. Both are alive (one on earth, one in Heaven) and both may petition God on my behalf.

If Protestants don't wish to avail themselves of the prayers of the saints, that's fine. No one forces them to. And a Catholic may certainly spend his whole life directing his prayers (ie. petitions) to Jesus alone and no one would bat an eyelash. But it irks me when some Johnny-come-lately group (in ecclesiastical time, anyway) comes along and tells 3/4 of all Chritians alive today that a pious devotion they've been practicing since the earliest days of the Church is somehow heretical.

Now that is the epitome of pride if you ask me.

[AustinBill]

This use survives in court filings today. Read a formal brief submitted to a court and you’ll see section titles like “Prayer for Relief”, etc.

[Radl]

If you really grew up Catholic it is obvious from your post you were sleeping during the whole journey.

[trane250]

To lie with such blatancy truly takes nerves of steel. Have you no shame?

Do religionistas have a monopoly on what is true?

[lastchance]

Next time post a “spew” warning. And thanks for a much needed hearty laugh.

[Pyro7480]

They told me that I would not understand the Bible because I was not of the cloth.

Actually, this mindset has been around for quite some time. It's partially what prompted St. Francis de Sales to write his Introduction to the Devout Life.

When God created the world He commanded each tree to bear fruit after its kind;and even so He bids Christians,--the living trees of His Church,--to bring forth fruits of devotion, each one according to his kind and vocation. A different exercise of devotion is required of each--the noble, the artisan, the servant, the prince, the maiden and the wife; and furthermore such practice must be modified according to the strength, the calling, and the duties of each individual. I ask you, my child, would it be fitting that a Bishop should seek to lead the solitary life of a Carthusian? And if the father of a family were as regardless in making provision for the future as a Capucin, if the artisan spent the day in church like a Religious, if the Religious involved himself in all manner of business on his neighbour's behalf as a Bishop is called upon to do, would not such a devotion be ridiculous, ill-regulated, and intolerable? Nevertheless such a mistake is often made, and the world, which cannot or will not discriminate between real devotion and the indiscretion of those who fancy themselves devout, grumbles and finds fault with devotion, which is really nowise concerned in these errors. No indeed, my child, the devotion which is true hinders nothing, but on the contrary it perfects everything; and that which runs counter to the rightful vocation of any one is, you may be sure, a spurious devotion....

It is an error, nay more, a very heresy, to seek to banish the devout life from the soldier's guardroom, the mechanic's workshop, the prince's court, or the domestic hearth. Of course a purely contemplative devotion, such as is specially proper to the religious and monastic life, cannot be practised in these outer vocations, but there are various other kinds of devotion well-suited to lead those whose calling is secular, along the paths of perfection. The Old Testament furnishes us examples in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, David, Job, Tobias, Sarah, Rebecca and Judith; and in the New Testament we read of St. Joseph, Lydia and Crispus, who led a perfectly devout life in their trades:--we have Saint Anne, Martha, Saint Monica, Aquila and Priscilla, as examples of household devotion, Cornelius, Saint Sebastian, and Saint Maurice among soldiers;--Constantine, Saint Helena, Saint Louis, the Blessed Amadaeus,and Saint Edward on the throne. And we even find instances of some who fell away in solitude,-- usually so helpful to perfection,--some who had led a higher life in the world, which seems so antagonistic to it. Saint Gregory dwells on how Lot, who had kept himself pure in the city, fell in his mountain solitude. Be sure that wheresoever our lot is cast we may and must aim at the perfect life.

[lastchance]

No just Christians.

[rollo tomasi]

“...via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.”

No, but if you question the Assumption (Empirical evidence lacking) you fall away from the “faith” and face the wrath of God, Peter and Paul. That is proclaiming the opposite of what Jesus preached, “I Am the way...”

Don't really read anything about God punishing people that question/make assumptions who Jesus calls up to heaven by any writings prior to 1950 but the infallible dude has spoken/written. Does not jive with the consistent message of salvation by the cross but that is what a human speaking “ex catherdra” can do I guess, become arrogant by not assuming but decreeing 1900 years after the supposed event.

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Another instance is the role and power of the pope, because many popes mis-used their power during the middle ages and lived sinful lives and almost universal misunderstanding of the difference between doctrine and dogma.

That's one thing I've been thinking about (and have thought about on a number of occasions); the sins of those who caused a split in the Church and helped lead to the Reformation.

I think of it along the lines of televangelists like Jimmy Swaggert, or even the pedophile priests; Satan is always active, seeking to persuade believers to fall away. And the EASIEST way to do that is to attack the head.

Cut off the head, and the body will die soon afterwards.

Corrupt the Pope, the Cardinals, the priests...then the believers will fall away, splintering off on their own.

I do think the Catholic Church needed to reform and fix itself after the darkness of the Middle Ages...but not on the scale of the Protestant Reformation. But what's past is past.

And hey...the Catholic Church is still standing.

[SoothingDave]

My understanding is that the dead are dead until the Resurrection. How then can there be anyone in heaven other than the Father and Christ my Redeamer? How could any of the dead pray for me?

Heaven is not in time, as we are while on earth.

God created time and He stands outside of it. Those with Him in Heaven are similarly situated.

[Pyro7480]

I’m glad I could bring such light into your day. :-)