Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
***I guess He had been talking to me for a while. I finally heard His voice in April, 1986. I’ve been listening to Him (imperfectly) ever since.***
Would you care to elaborate? How does He talk to you? Voice in your head? How?
They should be able to say EVERYTHING they need to say by quoting Scripture alone. If the Scripture is as plain as they say, they need no outside references or influences (and there wouldn’t be as many interpretations as there are people who have read the Word).
Before you engage in a Scripture war, please tell us all how we, today, know that we have the authentic Word of God, in the Bible.
How true is the Bible that you use to the original language?
Has there been anything added or subtracted from the version of the Bible that you use?
***I have indeed heard His voice...through His word...”My sheep hear my voice and they follow me.” I follow Him, imperfectly, yes. But, I follow Him...***
Without the Church, how do you know it is not the brightest angel?
***
I do believe He is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. He is the promised One of God, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. I read His word daily, and “work out my own salvation with fear and trembling,” taking heed according unto His word (that I, though not a young man, might cleanse my ways...)***
Good.
*** do search the scriptures, like the noble Bereans searched the scriptures, comparing scripture with scripture. I do find them all to be about the Lord Jesus Christ, from beginning to end. God’s word is a vast, measureless trove of treasure.***
Without the Church, one is as the Ethiopian eunuch, unable to make sense or understand.
***I do search the scriptures, like the noble Bereans searched the scriptures, comparing scripture with scripture. I do find them all to be about the Lord Jesus Christ, from beginning to end. God’s word is a vast, measureless trove of treasure.***
The Bereans searched the Old Testament; Christians must search the Gospels.
***To whom (else) shall I go, Lord, it is you who have the words of life. I have indeed come to Christ for salvation, convicted of my sin and prompted by His Spirit to repent and plead for mercy and forgiveness based on the atoning work of Christ Jesus’ blood that was shed on the cross of Calvary alone. In April, 1986 I became a born-again believer in my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.***
Were you baptized? Have you eaten His body and drunk His blood for life everlasting?
***No. This is why I need the Lord!***
Everyone is called to do his own imitation of Christ.
Very tender explanation.
Not exactly, not an audible voice, if that’s what you are referring to. The Lord communicates through prayer, through His word. When you are in a relationship with someone, you talk. You want the other person to know you, what you’re thinking, etc. It makes for a healthy relationship. God wants relationship with people. He longs after souls. He reaches out to us. A favorite verse of mine is in Jeremiah 29, verse 13 “And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.” That is God talking, no? He is saying (promising) that when we dilegently search for Him with a true heart, we will find Him. That’s just what the Lord Jesus did. He came to seek and to save that which was lost. He came with a heart that was perfect, loving, seeking. He finds those that are likewise seeking for Him. That is relationship. After doing all that He did for us on the cross (God demonstrates His own love for us in this, that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us)...after all that, why would He just allow the relationship to dissolve into some far away, nebulous, uncertainty? Why wouldn’t He continue to demonstrate that love, reveal it, let His loved one know just how much s/he means to Him? The wonder of the cross is that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, seeking to have fellowship with His creature, man, making strangers and enemies, His friends and children, wooing for Himself a
Bride.
Read Song of Solomon chapter 5 for a picture of how the Lord feels about His Bride, the Church...then listen for His knock and don’t delay in running to the door!
“Without the Church, how do you know it is not the brightest angel?”
I know it is His voice because He has given me His Spirit and it is His Spirit which testifies of Him.
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.
“Without the Church, one is as the Ethiopian eunuch, unable to make sense or understand.”
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Were you baptized? Have you eaten His body and drunk His blood for life everlasting?
Act 16:26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one’s bands were loosed.
Act 16:27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
Act 16:28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
Act 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
And...
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And...
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
And...
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
And...
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
I am not engaging in any scripture war, as I am done fighting against God and His word. If it be so that some find the scriptures objectionable, or incendiary that is not a result of my willful intent to bash anyone between the eyes. If you find any scriptures I have cited to be in error, please point them out. I am not perfect. I am a man, a weak, sinful (but redeemed) vessel, perhaps not unlike yourself (not trying to cast aspersions).
Amen!
Roms. 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
“Christians are not autonomous.”
Misrepresentation of what I said. I said nothing about the “Christians.” True Christians, regardless of earthly affiliation, or no earthly affiliation at all, are attached to Jesus Christ and sealed by the Spirit of God — ALL an operation of God, not of man, nor of any visible church on the earth.
What man does, man can disolve. What a visible earthly church does, it can disolve. (Or it can keep instituting new stuff for itself over 1,600 years). But what God does is forever. When God “births” and individual, that is a child of God forever. When God seals an idividual, that seal lasts forever.
Visible churches on earth come, and they go. The Body of Christ, which is not headquartered in any city on earth, but from the Right Hand of God Himself, where the ONLY Head of the Church sits presently, doesn’t come-and-go, it was founded ONCE-FOR-EVER in Christ’s Blood, and it remains. That is the CHURCH.
I asked some questions, will you answer them?
***Not exactly, not an audible voice, if that’s what you are referring to. The Lord communicates through prayer***
Are you saying that the Lord prays to you?
***When you are in a relationship with someone, you talk.***
Prayer is you talking to God. How does the Lord communicate with you?
***A favorite verse of mine is in Jeremiah 29, verse 13 “And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.” That is God talking, no?***
It is Scripture. You read it; how does it talk to you?
***That is God talking, no? He is saying (promising) that when we dilegently search for Him with a true heart, we will find Him. That’s just what the Lord Jesus did. He came to seek and to save that which was lost. He came with a heart that was perfect, loving, seeking.***
You said that He talks to you. How does He do that, with you?
***Why wouldn’t He continue to demonstrate that love, reveal it, let His loved one know just how much s/he means to Him? ***
Never said that He wouldn’t. How does He reveal it to you?
I am seeing responses here that the Biblioters give. I had a different opinion of your faith previously.
***“Christians are not autonomous.”
Misrepresentation of what I said. I said nothing about the “Christians.” True Christians, regardless of earthly affiliation, or no earthly affiliation at all, are attached to Jesus Christ and sealed by the Spirit of God — ALL an operation of God, not of man, nor of any visible church on the earth.***
You said that you had worked to create three autonomous churches. No church is autonomous - all churches are under the authority of the bishop appointed by God. Do these churches have a bishop?
***When God seals an idividual, that seal lasts forever.***
The seal is a mark of God; the seal of the beast is also a mark. No guarantees; we have the ability to walk away from Christ; we have, with God’s Grace, the ability to walk away from the beast.
***Visible churches on earth come, and they go.***
The One Church stays and watches the others come and go.
I believe Mary had been the recipient of previous miracles of Jesus and knew exactly what He is capable of doing. He would not disobey His mother. I don’t know about Mary’s death because of the prophecies written about her in Revelation. I envy Mary her faith and her humble submission to the Father’s commands. She truly is a blessed woman, and I know if anyone were to kneel to her, she would tell them the same thing Paul and Peter and John would have said. Only Jesus accepted any kind of worship. The scripture you quote, reveals Jesus as Son of Man, and nothing about Jesus as King of Kings and LORD of Lords, ruler with the Almighty.
Yes, Biblical churches are autonomous from man-made hierarchies and denominations.
” - all churches are under the authority of the bishop appointed by God. Do these churches have a bishop?”
All of these churches have their own bishop (1 Timothy ch. 3), and deacons. And they have other pastors and teachers (Ephesians 4) as well. And these bishops were called and placed there by God, and it is very obvious to the members of those churches that it is so.
“The seal is a mark of God; the seal of the beast is also a mark. No guarantees; we have the ability to walk away from Christ; we have, with God’s Grace, the ability to walk away from the beast.” (MarkBsnr)
As long as we all know what you believe. We understand that that is what the Catholic Church has taught you, but we disagree that it has anything to do with Biblical Truth. There is nothing in 2 Corinthians 1:21, 22; Ephesians 1:13; 4:30 (etc.) that indicates the seal can be broken, and actually, it appears quite to the contrary.
“The One Church stays and watches the others come and go.”
But that one doesn't matter, it is merely a visible earthly organization of political religionists in our view, and since we are partakers of Christ Himself, personally and in reality, once-and-forever, we don't need such a church that might try to wrongly teach us that the seal with which the Holy Ghost hath sealed us can be broken.
And actually, perpetuity (IF someone is looking for something visible all the time) of doctrine and practice since the Apostolic days, can be found in a dozen movements of Christians, all of whom could make the same claim as Rome, but alas, they never went into political kingdom building.
I would tell that to anyone who rejects it that they are going to hell.
You believe in a different Gospel, faith plus works and therefore have rejected the true Gospel.
If you told me I were going to hell for rejecting the RCC gospel it wouldn't affect me for one second.
Giving the true Gospel is telling those who aren't saved that they are lost and going to hell if they reject the truth of God's FREE gift of salvation.
You have been warned, your blood isn't on my hands.
And any of my Christian brethren who would tell you anything less would not be giving you true Gospel.
Amen brother, thank you for the post!
That is what the scriptures actually teach.
It is you that blasphemes God everytime you think that you have changed a wafer into Him!
LOL!
Actually, we are called to FOLLOW Christ, never to 'imitate' Him, something we cannot do.
Sorry brother, but if someone professes a different Gospel, he is on the way to hell.
No different than a Moslem, Hindu, Mormon etc.
He has stated that he rejects the true Gospel of salvation by faith alone and has therefore proudly proclaimed his own condemnation by following the RCC Gospel.
If he doesn't like to hear the consequences of that Gospel, let him repent of it and receive the free gift of salvation by faith alone in Christ alone. Lets stop all the ecumenical game playing and be honest that those who reject the true Gospel are heading to a real hell, based on what they have admitted believing.
On what basis would you state that he wouldn't be going to hell for not believing the Gospel that we are saved by?
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