Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I believe God knew when the foundations of the world were laid who would be obedient to Him and who would bear the Christ Child.
Agreed.
***Plenty of people actually saw the risen Christ, wrote it down or were interviewed. ***
Read your Bible. The assignment should you choose to accept it is: at what point did anyone understand that Jesus was God?
***Improper is taking a legend that caught fire not on day one mind you but 300-400 years later, starting actually being taken seriously centuries later and became legend off some highly suspicious writings not approved for spiritual consumption and historically a joke in terms of truth ***
Yes, St. Augustine was one hell of a joker.
***So we have in 1854 and 1950 declarations about unbiblical dogma made offenses worthy of being a heretic and facing the wrath of God plus a few Apostles.***
Either you accept all of the Church’s pronouncements or you accept none. You cannot pick and choose.
***Christ’s most sacred body was taken down from the Cross by Joseph and Nicodemus, and laid in the bosom of His weeping Mother. ***
I thought that the Protestant Mary, sinful and the mother of a hundred children all by different fathers, had spent too much time as a barfly and had snuffed it in a dark alley, injecting heroin.
The Theotokos, reduced to irrelevant. Nice theologies that our brethren have created.
***I have seen no polls or other data which indicate that Mary worship exists other than in isolated incidents; the Church excommunicates Mariolaters.
There goes a gigantic chunk of South and Central America.***
How gigantic? What is gigantic? 90%? 50%? Do you have figures? Where do you get your figures from?
***If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing. For we know partially and we prophesy partially, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known. So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.***
And I fall short of the mark. Thank you for your gentle remonstrance.
"{Mary is the} highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ... She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough."
[Martin Luther; sermon given on Christmas, 1531]
Augustine? What year was he born again? Bwhahahah!!! Did he ever verify the Assumption? Left the whole deal open just like another 4TH CENTURY “father” Epiphanius. Opined about perpetual virginity, like he observed Mary and Joseph every waking day and night, give me a break.
“Either you accept all of the Church’s pronouncements or you accept none. You cannot pick and choose”
Either you accept two corrupted, ELECTED, men of "powers" dogma a little less than 2000 years after the fact or the true God who sent Jesus Christ to die for our sins. Your Church just added 2 requirements for salvation based on legends and assumptions on a created FALIBLE human being no less. Nice going.
And how would you know that to be true?
Hey, no problem.
I’m sorry I was overly snotty (can we say that?)
I’ve enjoyed most of your posts. I’m gonna feel really bad when I have to turn you over to the Inquisition. IN the words of Teddy Kennedy when he was preparing to crucify Robert Bork, “Nothing personal.”
(For the severely humor impaired, everything from << I’m gonna >> to << personal.” >> is a joke.)(Not necessarily a very funny joke, but an attempt at a joke anyway.)
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
I think she’d be terminally disgusted . . .
perhaps uttering
Terminal “Tsk-Tsk’s”
Or else outraged and pleading God’s mercy on the witless folks fostering such fantasies.
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