The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[Judith Anne]

Also, very skillful and beautiful use of the language...

[Marysecretary]

That’s funny. Wonder how they like it?

[rollo tomasi]

“I am not convinced by this response.”

Simply put who is greater Mary, Moses or John the Baptist?

Human reasoning is quite flawed sometimes. Better to leave the silent things silent and not “intellectualized” things that might not be true. What good is faith if it's based on lies, conjecture and wishful HUMAN thinking?

Plenty of people actually saw the risen Christ, wrote it down or were interviewed. Spread like wild fire since day one. That is proper tradition. Improper is taking a legend that caught fire not on day one mind you but 300-400 years later, starting actually being taken seriously centuries later and became legend off some highly suspicious writings not approved for spiritual consumption and historically a joke in terms of truth (I.E. could not have happened). That and apparitions never tested or questioned. Even secular historians admit proper evidence for an existence of Jesus and the actual claim of a Resurrection. Highly dubious scripts and lack of proper tradition should dogma not make.

Also what does perpetual virginity and Assumptions have to do with God's will? If meant to be it would have been clearly defined by the Apostles and Jesus’ treatment of His earthly vessel. Seems Christ had more important duties to perform and if God wanted this known from the beginning clearly He would have fit it some where between Acts and Revelations. Mathew, Mark, Luke and John seemed silent about it. Also dropped the “horrors” of Mary actually having more children.

Like I said previously if you want to make silent things loud keep in mind your line of Peter did not make the Immaculate conception until 1854 and the Assumption 1950. Both from the name of Pius. At least Sixtus IV covered his bases in 1476 not making the newly established feast dogma. I assume questions from clergy probably kept it that was in order for them not to be declared heretics.

So we have in 1854 and 1950 declarations about unbiblical dogma made offenses worthy of being a heretic and facing the wrath of God plus a few Apostles. Prottys seem to have some ammunition when it comes to labeling the RCC for putting Mary on a pedestal, your soul is in the balance if you don't (Over a thousand years later). Good grief.

[John Leland 1789]

Are some of these people paid apologists or lawyers for a certain church?

[Marysecretary]

You mean, gasp, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John weren’t CATHOLICS????

[Marysecretary]

If you depend on your works to get you into heaven, you’re lost already. First is faith, then works that God gives you to do. Can’t work your way in without a Saviour.

[Judith Anne]

Are some of these people paid apologists or lawyers for a certain church?

Yep, you betcha. And I just got a raise. I said, "You can't pay me enough to hang around getting insulted all day by a buncha ignorant protties, I quit!" So the boss, in order to keep me here, gave me a substantial salary increase. He told me not to tell anybody else, though, because then they'd be jealous and demand more money, too. But I think we ALL deserve a raise. Look what we have to put up with!

But I'm off duty here in a bit. Headed out to dinner with my grandchildren, to spend some of that extra cash.

/sarc, if you needed that.

[Quix]

I don’t THINK so.

Mostly just desperately very convinced! LOL.

I think they fear, and rightly so, that if they admit one truth showing their RC edifice legands to be the falsehood they are, then a big stack of cards will tumble down and where will their faith be, then?

[Joya]

Small Straws In A Soft Wind by Marsha Burns — June 12, 2008:

Beloved, I have called you to walk in the liberty of My Spirit. Be discerning, and set a watch for those who come in by stealth to spy out your liberty. Do not yield even for a moment to a religious spirit, who desires to bring you into the bondage of control and religious exercise. Your freedom can only be maintained as you submit your spirit to Me alone. Be strong and resolute.

Jeremiah 1:8 Do not be afraid of their faces, For I am with you to deliver you, says the LORD.

[John Leland 1789]

The four brethren you mentioned were Messianic Israelites expecting the restoration of the Davidic Kingdom with the Messiah (Jesus Christ) on the throne in Jerusalem, the Twelve Apostles under the Messiah judging the twelve tribes of ISRAEL, and Israel itself being the chief nation in that kingdom.

At least during our Lord's earthly and the period covered in the first 12 chapters of Acts, Peter NOR the other Eleven had any knowledge of a church age or a perpetual visible New Testament church by any name.

[Marysecretary]

That’s right. Mary IS blessed. I honor her for being the mother of the Lord. But to put her on a pedestal? No. She would hate that.

[Marysecretary]

Those are words from your mouth...

[mgist]

Christ's most sacred body was taken down from the Cross by Joseph and Nicodemus, and laid in the bosom of His weeping Mother.

Consider the sighs and tears of the Blessed Mother, with what pain she embraced the bloody, tortured remains of her beloved Jesus, her baby. Here unite your tears with those of the disconsolate Mother. Reflect that our Jesus would not descend from the Cross until He consummated the work of redemption; and that at His departure from, as well as at His entrance into the world, He would be placed in the bosom of His beloved Mother. With this we learn constancy in our mission! We learn to love, and obey our God. Cleave to the standard of the Cross. Consider with what purity that soul should be adorned which receives, in the blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist, Christ's most sacred body and blood.

Thank you God for the many gifts you gave through Jesus. May we learn to love each other, they way you love us. All of us.

In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

[Petronski]

The four brethren you mentioned were Messianic Israelites expecting the restoration of the Davidic Kingdom with the Messiah (Jesus Christ) on the throne in Jerusalem, the Twelve Apostles under the Messiah judging the twelve tribes of ISRAEL, and Israel itself being the chief nation in that kingdom.

That's some fancy mindreading. Of course the effect of your theory is that YOU know more about Christ's purpose on the earth than the four Gospel Writers AND the Twelve Apostles.

Congratulations, you have established a whole new quantum of hubris.

[Marysecretary]

Wonderful! Thank you!

[Petronski]

They are the force of logic of a Mary with no free will, no choice in the matter.

[Marysecretary]

Thank you for a fine history! I’ve learned something here.

[OLD REGGIE]

I have seen no polls or other data which indicate that Mary worship exists other than in isolated incidents; the Church excommunicates Mariolaters.

There goes a gigantic chunk of South and Central America.

[Marysecretary]

A-A-A-A-A-AMEN!!! Preach it broth-a!

[OLD REGGIE]

Do you still beat your wife? (And are you a lawyer, perchance?)

NOYB! Do you deny Honorius was convicted of heresy and anathematized by a valid Ecumenical Council? Was the Council in error?

Are you a politician perchance?