Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Must be another case of the famous RC bearing false witness hereon.
I don’t know of any Protty villifying the authentic Mary a microgram’s worth.
However, the idolatries and blasphemies of the RC side . . . that’s another matter! LOL.
***Must be another case of the famous RC bearing false witness hereon.
I don’t know of any Protty villifying the authentic Mary a microgram’s worth.***
You must keep your blinders on when cruising FR.
i WONDER if she’d be
very gentle at all
were she to bodily return and discover what the RC political RELIGIOUS power-mongers have done with her image and Name . . .
would she be very gentle on Larry King, say?
I don’t think so. I think she’d likely be outraged and not mince words at all nor in calm tones.
Remember that the “authentic Mary” is often a silly broodmare of a girl with no free will.
Your kind and gentle words have signed you (and the Mother of God) up for some more vile sneering.
Well and wonderfully put. I agree entirely.
I have a friend who is a retired professor and he calls certain people “precious.” And it isn’t meant as a compliment.
***Remember that the “authentic Mary” is often a silly broodmare of a girl with no free will.***
Completely irrelevant.
I’m surprised that our separated brethren haven’t yet called for an eradication of Marian verse from the Bible. After all, she merely gets in the way of Bibliolatry.
Larry: Geneva, Switzerland, you’re on the air with the Mother of God.
Geneva: No! She ees not ze mozzer of-—
Larry: Sorry, Geneva, we had to use the kill button there. You cannot use that language on our air. Sorry you had to hear that, Mary, but thank God for the seven-second-delay.
Mary: Yes, thank Him.
***I don’t think so. I think she’d likely be outraged and not mince words at all nor in calm tones.***
This is good example of why private interpretation is forbidden by God.
***Brooklyn:
Yo! Hey Mary, how ya doon?***
I suspect that she’s doing far better than those who oppose her will be doing.
He has cast down the mighty from their thrones and has lifted up the humble and lowly.
He has filled the hungery with good things, and the rich He has sent empty away.
There are two "poles" of gentle: (1) There is the wussy person who has never confronted the conflicts and dreadfulness of fallen life, and whose gentleness is a n invitation to fantasy
(2)There is the warrior who has seen combat, who has "not only endured but prevailed", and who, having weathered combat and assaults beyond our imagining, knows a peace that many can not imagine.
When our Lord wept over Jerusalem, hen He, in words no clergyman dare forget, called the Pharisees a "generation of vipers", surely those who had been with Him from Nazareth said, "He's His mother's son. Look out!
With what unearthly joy does she condemn tyrants to anonymous ignominy, and the unmerciful to starvation! We are not talking about some wussie here.
Wise words.
Thanks.
Those God directly touched and worked with such as Enoch or Elijah or Moses or Saul or David are all creations on par with Mary. Each fulfilled a role that God revealed, encouraged and blessed them with.
Most human beings have an independent will. Throughout history a few men and women were hand chosen by God before they were ever created in the temporal dimension we reside in now. The only human Christ said was greater than anybody else in terms of being “touched by God” is John the Baptist. Jesus further went on to say “Yet even the least important person in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.”
Excuse us if some people start to scratch their heads at “the only one true Church” that assumes the arrogant position of speaking ex cathedra ("Formally" defined in the swift year of 1870 in the year of our Lord) and determining your eternal soul is is jeopardy because you question some legend that has nothing to do with salvation by the Cross.
Perhaps you are confusing people's faith as “austere and puritan (Manichaean) theology, barren and cheerless” with not accepting the fantasies brought upon by speculation and suspect traditions of fallible men with a penchant for imagination.
No matter what any Roman Catholic says, in order to not face the wrath of God decreed by your Church one must be compelled to believe in Mary's assumption. This proclaimed in 1950. Excuse those who are God/Christ/Holy Spirit only that question your Church putting Mary on a higher pedestal than Enoch or Elijah or Moses or Saul or David or any other creation directly chosen by God to act in His will. The evidence is in the dogma.
Still looking for that verse/command which says your going to hell if you question who Jesus brings up to Heaven with their human earthly body. Also still looking for that Apostle/early Church father who ever tought about an assumption. Would have been vital information BACK THEN if your eternal soul would be in jeopordy post 1950.
Hog wash.. Isn’t that your favorite reply.
I ignore your posts, I wish you would afford me the same respect.
EXCELLENT POST.
I’m copying it to the RC folder.
Blessings in all you do, Bro.
I pretty much ignore certain posts, however I do learn a great deal from reading certain responses and then back tracking.
Very edifying.. Amazing the spouting of words without any attempt to “put on Christ”.
I trust and believe in the Holy Mighty one as well.
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