Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
That’s right. We CAN know and when se say we do, they accuse us of being ‘arrogant.’ Confident is more like it. I KNOW I have been saved. I don’t have to wait until they close my casket to wonder if I’ve made it. By the Blood of Jesus, I AM SAVED. By the Grace of Jesus, I AM SAVED. And it brings me much joy to know that when my earthly body is done, I will see Him face to face.
AMEN, Joya. He doesn’t want us in bondage to any religious spirit. Many are, I’m afraid, but God is moving to remove it from those who are bound up in it. Praise His Holy Name.
***Actually, ftD rather pointedly judged the condition of my soul and repeated himself over a number of posts on another thread.
If you reject the grace of God and follow instead, the faith/works gospel of the RCC or anyone else, you are not saved. (Gal.1:8-9)
There is only one true Gospel (Eph.2:8-9)***
Point the 1st: You repeatedly stated in rather contentious prose that you KNEW the state of my soul and that you KNEW that I’d go to hell.
Point the 2nd: You repeatedly state that you follow the gospel of misunderstood Paul rather than the Gospel of Jesus.
I think we, the Prottys, all understand that faith without works is dead, just as works without faith is also dead. No problem here.
Oh, dear. I hope you really don’t believe that.
***[Let us at least admit that the Roman Catholic Church and ‘Protestants’(Christians), teach two different Gospels.]***
It seems that you teach a gospel of misunderstood Paul rather than the Gospel of Jesus.
***I state that Catholics aren’t Christians since they aren’t saved***
Aren’t saved by your own personal god that you have created in your own image, you mean.
***So, yes, if you reject sola fide you aren’t saved since that is the true Gospel. ***
How would you know? You have demonstrated masterful inability to understand what the Gospels really are.
Great list. I copied it for myself. Thank you.
Great list. I copied it for myself. Thank you.
***If a Catholic and Protestant disagree on the Gospel, only one can be correct and believing the wrong Gospel sends you to hell. ***
I’d believe the Church that Jesus Christ created to give us the correct Gospel.
***I am not judging anything, I asked a simple question to make a judgement on yourself. ***
You composed quite a few posts Judging me. Have you repented?
Consider what passes for worship among protestants, and you will see the root of the problem: they sing songs about Jesus, hear a lecture about Him, say a few prayers (often of the form “O Lord, we just wanna praise You. . .”), and call it worship.
When they see or hear anything of the traditional devotion to Mary shown by traditional Christians (whether Orthodox, Latin or the few Anglicans who still ‘get it’), it’s already beyond what they themselves do by way of ‘worship’ directed to God, that naturally they are confused.
***The King James translation is not a translation at all. It’s a mini sermon stuffed into the space where Romans 11:6 should be.***
I bow to your wisdom. Would that I had thought of that.
The KJV builds upon the deliberate error that Luther introduced.
***Obviously, the R ‘dictionaries’ are missing things like the words between “hypocondriac” and “hypodermic”. The DOUBLE STANDARD has reached a new low. LOL. ***
So has your spelling.
***I called the lies of the RC edifice lies, falsehoods.
Not the whole edifice.
Sometimes the details are important.***
Shall I resurrect your past posts railing against the entire “RC edifice”? The entire Catholic Church (which you mislabel as the RC edifice).
Perhaps the multiple colours and fonts have hypnotized you into believing Protestant error.
If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing. For we know partially and we prophesy partially, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known. So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
***All these Scriptural quotes are so fitting, so straightforward and so understandable. Thanks for putting them together and helping us to see.***
And thank you for the dignified response, as opposed to the estrogen-laden Protestant high fiving and giggling like 10 year old girls at a sleepover.
***One image yet is not destroyed;
‘tis one he still holds dear
It is his proud reflection
of his visage in the mirror***
I have maintained for many years, supported by so many examples in private and in public, that many if not most Protestants have created God in their own image and keep Him on the hall stand and rub His head for luck when they walk by.
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