The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Yes, Scripture AND Tradition. It's not a dichotomy, there is no conflict.

Co. 2:8 Beware lest ay man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and after Christ.

2 Thes. 2:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

[1000 silverlings]

dramatic effect... annoying

lol

kindergarten kid that messed his pants

"Teacher teacher..something in here stinks!"

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Sorry, Col. 2:8 should read..”and NOT after Christ”

Becky

[Quix]

Thanks tons.

Will save it in the RC text file.

I see the ‘faithful’ are whining, wailing and pontificating as usual against the historical facts.

Fascinating.

[Quix]

ONE

of the mindboggling points is that they really do keep the cup from the laity . . . incredible.

After all their wailing and pontificating about the LITERAL interepretation—according to them—yielding transubstantiation . . .

they then arbitrarily give only the wafer?

And the faithful fall for this by the millions?

Mind boggling.

[Mad Dawg]

Well, after reading a little more carefully that incredibly misleading and tendentious list, I understand the animosity toward the Church. I can't recall seeing such a collection of lies by misstatement in recent years. That list is a collection of cheap and misleading shots.

As to your question, first let me ask, are you interested in taking cheap shots based on a misunderstanding of our views or do you want to know what we teach? No amount of information and no answers however carefully written will provide an accurate explanation to someone who doesn't want to understand.

With that querulous introduction: the Sacraments are given by God to us as "ordinarily" necessary means of grace. God is not limited to them, but they are extremely helpful to a "vital relationship with Christ."

[Quix]

to make up your own history

!!GTTM!!

Obviously, the R 'dictionaries' are missing things like the words between "hypocondriac" and "hypodermic". The DOUBLE STANDARD has reached a new low. LOL.

[Quix]

Bearing false witness again?

I called the lies of the RC edifice lies, falsehoods.

Not the whole edifice.

Sometimes the details are important.

[Mad Dawg]

Anybody who thinks all of those are "historical facts", is well on the way to membership among le genti dolorose c'hanno perduto il ben dell'intelletto.

Well, if a real stick won't do, a made up and twisted one beats a papist almost as well, in the mind of the one attempting the beating. It's always interesting, though sad, when the self-described "Spirit-filled" turn to lies to bolster their points.

[Running On Empty]

This post and also #5007 aren’t very edifying.

[Quix]

I don’t know how anyone but God can resolve the history issue.

Seems to me both sides have their list of history experts attesting to the “facts.”

Add in the fact of the RC edifice ‘cleansing’ the libraries . . . in centuries past . . .

Sigh.

I do appreciate that you have a better understanding of the perspective of some of us.

[Mad Dawg]

No no no no no

My answer was short gnomic and wiseacre. That's why the phrase "Short gnomic wiseacre answer" was followed with a colon ":". In normal English usage the words before the colon introduce the words following the colon. I was expressing frustration at only having time for a, well, short, gnomic (or glib), wiseacre answer.

"The wicked flee when none pursue."
I think you'll find that in, oh yes, in the Scriptures.

obviously you are going to ascribe untrue motives to anything I have to say.

When you're done consulting your grammar books, you might want to check the rule on mind-reading. I guess once that list gets put up we can bid civil and reasoned discourse farewell. When people come to fight, they make up fights where there are none.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I’m sorry, my grammar is weak. I thought you were saying my answer was wiseacre.

[MarkBsnr]

***It seems that Roman Catholics get upset if you ask them if they are saved, even though Paul describes himself as such in 1Cor.1:18 and John states we ought to know we have eternal life (1Jn.5:13)***

Paul does not say that he is saved, but rather being saved in 1 Cor 1:18
The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Being saved; in the process of being saved. Not a touch of the magic wand and hey presto. The journey, the Way, not the instant.

Paul describes himself as uncertain but in hope of salvation. 1 Cor 4:
I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord.
5
Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.

Paul hopes that he will be acquitted by the Lord, but the Lord is the Judge, not him or anyone else.

Paul also states plainly that it is possible for him to lose his salvation. 1 Cor 9:
24
8 Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win.
25
Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one.
26
Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing.
27
No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

How many people now claim that they KNOW what Paul did not? How many people are self-deceived? Matt 7:

21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
23
Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.’

1John13:
I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.

So that you may (might) know - not that you will know.

This Catholic understands that the Bible says; I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

[TASMANIANRED]

Well said.

Jesus commands us to walk in his path, To love God, to love one another, to pick up our cross and follow, to turn the other cheek, to feed his sheep

..not to usurp his role as judge.

[Running On Empty]

Thank you, Mark

All these Scriptural quotes are so fitting, so straightforward and so understandable. Thanks for putting them together and helping us to see.

[Running On Empty]

“..not to usurp his role as judge”.

Thank you, TASMANIAN.

[Judith Anne]

Decades ago, a Jewish friend of mine wrote this little poem, and I have never forgotten it:

He who would judge,
Let him, perforce
As a fine balance
Weigh pound for pound.

May he judge lightly
Lest by Decree
He judge himself,
Eternally.

by my friend, MB.

[Running On Empty]

Beautiful.

And, dear lady, I also offer this, which was written by someone very near and dear to me:

THE ICONOCLAST

One image yet is not destroyed;
‘tis one he still holds dear
It is his proud reflection
of his visage in the mirror
It speaks: “Lean in, come close to me
and hear the words I say”
His ear inclines for siren’s call—
“Forget thy feet of clay”

[Judith Anne]

Sharp and accurate...makes me think how narcissism and iconoclasty may be related the reflection being one of only inner emptiness...