The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

Do not pretend the Catholic Church had no beef with Luther but indulgences.

Here is one of the Great Saints of the Catholic church...This is just a tiny bit of this guy's anti-Christian teaching...No doubt this is what the Catholic church teaches...Otherwise why would they make him a Saint???

THE SECRET OF MARY
St. Louis de Montfort

10. (4) God chose her (Mary) to be the treasurer, the administrator and the dispenser of all his graces, so that all his graces and gifts pass through her hands. Such is the power that she has received from him that, according to St Bernardine, she gives the graces of the eternal Father, the virtues of Jesus Christ, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to whom she wills, as and when she wills, and as much as she wills.

21. Let us not imagine, then, as some misguided teachers do, that Mary being simply a creature would be a hindrance to union with the Creator. Far from it, for it is no longer Mary who lives but Jesus Christ himself, God alone, who lives in her. Her transformation into God far surpasses that experienced by St Paul and other saints, more than heaven surpasses the earth. Mary was created only for God, and it is unthinkable that she should reserve even one soul for herself. On the contrary she leads every soul to God and to union with him. Mary is the wonderful echo of God. The more a person joins himself to her, the more effectively she unites him to God. When we say "Mary", she re-echoes "God". When, like St Elizabeth, we call her blessed, she gives the honour to God. If those misguided ones who were so sadly led astray by the devil, even in their prayer-life, had known how to discover Mary, and Jesus through her, and God through Jesus, they would not have had such terrible falls. The saints tell us that when we have once found Mary, and through Mary Jesus, and through Jesus God the Father, then we have discovered every good. When we say "every good", we except nothing. "Every good" includes every grace, continuous friendship with God, every protection against the enemies of God, possession of truth to counter every falsehood, endless benefits and unfailing headway against the hazards we meet on the way to salvation, and finally every consolation and joy amid the bitter afflictions of life.

23. The difficulty, then, is how to arrive at the true knowledge of the most holy Virgin and so find grace in abundance through her. God, as the absolute Master, can give directly what he ordinarily dispenses only through Mary, and it would be rash to deny that he sometimes does so. However, St Thomas assures us that, following the order established by his divine Wisdom, God ordinarily imparts his graces to men through Mary. Therefore, if we wish to go to him, seeking union with him, we must use the same means which he used in coming down from heaven to assume our human nature and to impart his graces to us. That means was a complete dependence on Mary his Mother, which is true devotion to her.

47. 2. We must always act in Mary, that is to say, we must gradually acquire the habit of recollecting ourselves interiorly and so form within us an idea or a spiritual image of Mary. She must become, as it were, an Oratory for the soul where we offer up our prayers to God without fear of being ignored. She will be as a Tower of David for us where we can seek safety from all our enemies. She will be a burning lamp lighting up our inmost soul and inflaming us with love for God. She will be a sacred place of repose where we can contemplate God in her company.

Finally Mary will be the only means we will use in going to God, and she will become our intercessor for everything we need. When we pray we will pray in Mary. When we receive Jesus in Holy Communion we will place him in Mary for him to take his delight in her. If we do anything at all, it will be in Mary, and in this way Mary will help us to forget self everywhere and in all things.

48. 3. We must never go to our Lord except through Mary, using her intercession and good standing with him. We must never be without her when praying to Jesus.

This guy quotes church fathers and other Saints of the Catholic church...

This is not the Christian church of the Holy Scriptures...People should get as far away as they possibly can from this religion...

The flip side is that there needs to be some recognition within the church, somehow, by someone, in some way, means or form - that the church is not always right, and has not always been right

I'm having a faith problem here. I thought I understood you to say that you had been considering Catholicism. But now you are saying as if it were a brand new idea that the Church is not always right and adducing the Borgias in a sketch of a possible argument.

So, let me say clearly: individuals in the Church, even Popes, can and do sin, can and do err. This is not new doctrine. The consequences of their error and sin are often grievous.

Darn, I can't find my copy of The Roots of the Reformation. (For some reason the boss lady hasn't figured out the part where she's supposed to put stuff away so that I know where it is. Just because I leave stuff all over the place, she has this insane notion that ->I<- ought to put it away. Imagine!)

ANYway there's an awesome apology by some pope to some German diet, in which the pope blames the corruption and inattention of the ecclesiastical bigwigs (not his exact words) for all the mess.

So, if I could find that, would that be sufficient evidence that the Church knows that there are, ah, issues, from time to time?

Get or borrow

It's at least interesting. And short.

No doubt this is what the Catholic church teaches...

Only if you can find it in the official teaching of the Catholic Church (the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a good place to look).

Otherwise why would they make him a Saint???

You could research why he was made a saint, or you could make wild claims about it.

We would all do well to recognize here and now why it is important to hang on to those God-given gifts like logic, reason and common sense.

This is not the Christian church of the Holy Scriptures...People should get as far away as they possibly can from this religion...

THIS is not a church or religion at all. It is fragments of prose written by St. Louis de Montfort.

From that thread.....

To: stfassisi

I hope the record is adequately clear here: None of this involves referring to Mary as "Redemptrix." Claims to the contrary are false.

Claims to the contrary? You mean the claims by Padre Pio???

How does the Catholic apologist expect to be taken seriously when they make a statment like that? The thread clearly says, over and over, that Mary is the "co-redemptrix."

It's even in the title!!!

Co-chairmen share the office and duties and work of chairman.

Likewise, the RCC would have us believe "co-redeemers" share the office and duties and work of redeemer.

Blasphemy.

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