The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Iscool]

Do not pretend the Catholic Church had no beef with Luther but indulgences.

Here is one of the Great Saints of the Catholic church...This is just a tiny bit of this guy's anti-Christian teaching...No doubt this is what the Catholic church teaches...Otherwise why would they make him a Saint???

THE SECRET OF MARY
St. Louis de Montfort

10. (4) God chose her (Mary) to be the treasurer, the administrator and the dispenser of all his graces, so that all his graces and gifts pass through her hands. Such is the power that she has received from him that, according to St Bernardine, she gives the graces of the eternal Father, the virtues of Jesus Christ, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to whom she wills, as and when she wills, and as much as she wills.

21. Let us not imagine, then, as some misguided teachers do, that Mary being simply a creature would be a hindrance to union with the Creator. Far from it, for it is no longer Mary who lives but Jesus Christ himself, God alone, who lives in her. Her transformation into God far surpasses that experienced by St Paul and other saints, more than heaven surpasses the earth. Mary was created only for God, and it is unthinkable that she should reserve even one soul for herself. On the contrary she leads every soul to God and to union with him. Mary is the wonderful echo of God. The more a person joins himself to her, the more effectively she unites him to God. When we say "Mary", she re-echoes "God". When, like St Elizabeth, we call her blessed, she gives the honour to God. If those misguided ones who were so sadly led astray by the devil, even in their prayer-life, had known how to discover Mary, and Jesus through her, and God through Jesus, they would not have had such terrible falls. The saints tell us that when we have once found Mary, and through Mary Jesus, and through Jesus God the Father, then we have discovered every good. When we say "every good", we except nothing. "Every good" includes every grace, continuous friendship with God, every protection against the enemies of God, possession of truth to counter every falsehood, endless benefits and unfailing headway against the hazards we meet on the way to salvation, and finally every consolation and joy amid the bitter afflictions of life.

23. The difficulty, then, is how to arrive at the true knowledge of the most holy Virgin and so find grace in abundance through her. God, as the absolute Master, can give directly what he ordinarily dispenses only through Mary, and it would be rash to deny that he sometimes does so. However, St Thomas assures us that, following the order established by his divine Wisdom, God ordinarily imparts his graces to men through Mary. Therefore, if we wish to go to him, seeking union with him, we must use the same means which he used in coming down from heaven to assume our human nature and to impart his graces to us. That means was a complete dependence on Mary his Mother, which is true devotion to her.

47. 2. We must always act in Mary, that is to say, we must gradually acquire the habit of recollecting ourselves interiorly and so form within us an idea or a spiritual image of Mary. She must become, as it were, an Oratory for the soul where we offer up our prayers to God without fear of being ignored. She will be as a Tower of David for us where we can seek safety from all our enemies. She will be a burning lamp lighting up our inmost soul and inflaming us with love for God. She will be a sacred place of repose where we can contemplate God in her company.

Finally Mary will be the only means we will use in going to God, and she will become our intercessor for everything we need. When we pray we will pray in Mary. When we receive Jesus in Holy Communion we will place him in Mary for him to take his delight in her. If we do anything at all, it will be in Mary, and in this way Mary will help us to forget self everywhere and in all things.

48. 3. We must never go to our Lord except through Mary, using her intercession and good standing with him. We must never be without her when praying to Jesus.

This guy quotes church fathers and other Saints of the Catholic church...

This is not the Christian church of the Holy Scriptures...People should get as far away as they possibly can from this religion...

[Mad Dawg]

The flip side is that there needs to be some recognition within the church, somehow, by someone, in some way, means or form - that the church is not always right, and has not always been right

I'm having a faith problem here. I thought I understood you to say that you had been considering Catholicism. But now you are saying as if it were a brand new idea that the Church is not always right and adducing the Borgias in a sketch of a possible argument.

So, let me say clearly: individuals in the Church, even Popes, can and do sin, can and do err. This is not new doctrine. The consequences of their error and sin are often grievous.

Darn, I can't find my copy of The Roots of the Reformation. (For some reason the boss lady hasn't figured out the part where she's supposed to put stuff away so that I know where it is. Just because I leave stuff all over the place, she has this insane notion that ->I<- ought to put it away. Imagine!)

ANYway there's an awesome apology by some pope to some German diet, in which the pope blames the corruption and inattention of the ecclesiastical bigwigs (not his exact words) for all the mess.

So, if I could find that, would that be sufficient evidence that the Church knows that there are, ah, issues, from time to time?

Get or borrow

It's at least interesting. And short.

[Mad Dawg]

That is WAY too extravagant. It is very kind, but may I accept, “Sometimes you’re not quite as dumb as usual,” as an alternative compliment?

[Petronski]

The thread WAS adequately clear, but no amount of clarity can prevent the most scabrous lies from belching forth from some quarters nonetheless.

It is a fetish, its victims pitiful.

[1000 silverlings]

You pinged me so I assume this is an open thread. Forthedeclaration summed it all up brilliantly:

they do admit that they worship Mary, they just won't admit that it's wrong.

[Manfred the Wonder Dawg]

For any who believe in such none sense, saints of God should weep.

[netmilsmom]

The killer of it is, if you read that thread, it makes the “Usual Suspects” look so unbelievably bad.

[Petronski]

No doubt this is what the Catholic church teaches...

Only if you can find it in the official teaching of the Catholic Church (the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a good place to look).

Otherwise why would they make him a Saint???

You could research why he was made a saint, or you could make wild claims about it.

We would all do well to recognize here and now why it is important to hang on to those God-given gifts like logic, reason and common sense.

This is not the Christian church of the Holy Scriptures...People should get as far away as they possibly can from this religion...

THIS is not a church or religion at all. It is fragments of prose written by St. Louis de Montfort.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

From that thread.....

To: stfassisi

I hope the record is adequately clear here: None of this involves referring to Mary as "Redemptrix." Claims to the contrary are false.

Claims to the contrary? You mean the claims by Padre Pio???

How does the Catholic apologist expect to be taken seriously when they make a statment like that? The thread clearly says, over and over, that Mary is the "co-redemptrix."

It's even in the title!!!

Co-chairmen share the office and duties and work of chairman.

Likewise, the RCC would have us believe "co-redeemers" share the office and duties and work of redeemer.

Blasphemy.

[Petronski]

The killer of it is, if you read that thread, it makes the “Usual Suspects” look so unbelievably bad....

It usually does.

[1000 silverlings]

Not only that but there is no conjuction “co” in Latin.

[Petronski]

The thread clearly says, over and over, that Mary is the "co-redemptrix."

Yes it does. Now, let's review my statement:

I hope the record is adequately clear here: None of this involves referring to Mary as "Redemptrix." Claims to the contrary are false.

Did you see the difference?

Do you expect everyone else to ignore the difference?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Not only that but there is no conjuction "co" in Latin.

Now that is fascinating.

Keep the bottle; change the wine.

[Petronski]

Not only that but there is no conjuction “co” in Latin.

Yes, that doesn't help the anti-Catholic position though. The "co-" in the proposed title "co-Redemptrix" is to be understood as the Latin word cum meaning "with."

Not "equal to" or "same as."

[1000 silverlings]

Keep the bottle; change the wine

lol, remarkably astute

[Mad Dawg]

(It’s also fun to check out the word “bead”.)

[thefrankbaum]

The problem is not with those ask the Father to have so and so (Mary) pray for them.

The problem is in praying to Mary.

Why would we give our petition to God, asking Him to give it to Mary so she could give it back to Him? The reason we ask Mary to bring them to Him is because of James 5:16.

[Petronski]

Now that is fascinating.

Yes, it is fascinating, because it obliterates one of your positions.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

As 1000S wrote, there is no conjuction "co" in Latin.

Co-redeemers would be equal redeemers. They would share in the work and office of redemption.

Some people may be fooled by this silly wordplay, but not those whom God gives eyes to see.

Let's be clear about this. Do you believe Mary is the "co-redeemer?" Do Mary and Christ both redeem men?

[Petronski]

Likewise, the RCC would have us believe "co-redeemers" share the office and duties and work of redeemer.

Wrong on several levels.