Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
“You’re so vain. YOu prob’ly think this Psalm is about you.”
ROFL!
You are certainly on the dime this morning!
Thanks for Ratzinger’s quote. It’s comforting.
I assume that perspective of his is the reigning one from him?
Sometimes it seems that the RC edifice stands on several sides of an issue in some respects.
RC edifice = any Catholic to be personally attacked
DSSA: DOUBLE STANDARD STRIKES AGAIN!
RC’s scream bloody murder if Prottys even hint at assuming that RC’s believe/practice something they assert they don’t.
Yet, the same RC’s are quite quick, perhaps even gleeful to put words in Protty’s fingers.
Fascinating.
DSSA . . . evidently a favorite RC ritual.
Go back to Post 3135 and save it to your homepage.
When a Non-Catholic insists that Co-redeemer or co-redemptrix is anything, post it.
If Pope Benedict doesn’t want it, it won’t be done.
Facts are facts.
Have a blessed retreat.
We have a good RC retreat place in NM—a Pecos Monestary.
Prayers for God’s highest in your time apart.
From a zillion conversations with RCs:
"We don't pray to Mary we pray through her. Haven't you ever asked anyone to pray for you? Since Jesus is without sin He MUST honor His mother and do whatever she asks bla bla bla".
You’re already wrong.
I just did.
The fantasy church you are talking about is certainly weird and not very nice. However it has only a superficial similarity to the real Church.
But the Orwellian "three-minute hate" doesn't work so well against the real Church, so the fantasy is preferred.
You guys just go on beating up on shadows. Even shadow boxing can help strengthen one for a real fight. And maybe one day you'll see the Church for what she is and give up this fantasy of elites and so forth.
Just did what?
>>Sometimes it seems that the RC edifice stands on several sides of an issue in some respects.<<
I agree with you there. I’m in a extremely Historically Catholic parish. All the ceremony of years past. Our people like it, a lot.
I was told by the Director of Religious Education that there is “something in the water” over there, about my parish because we like the traditions.
Catholics can feel differently about things and you’ll find different opinions, as with any group of humans, but I’ll say this to the Co-redemptrix championing Catholics, “You’re allowed to want.” That doesn’t make it so.
“Thanks for Ratzinger’s quote. It’s comforting.”
********
What I missed; what I missed ???
Oooops! Make that the DRE at my old parish told me that there is “something in the water”
Yikes!
But I put it up for you to contemplate whether irritating "driving nuts" your brethren because they disagree with you on a theological matter is consistent with, say, Ephesians 4:29-32
Love, a certain Apostle said, rejoices not at evil but rejoices in the Good.
I know you were SORT of kidding, but I still think it's worth considering. I know I'M trying to offer my alleged act to God for Him to clean up for me and for the brethren
““Yet when asked, in a 2000 interview by Peter Seewald contained in the book God and the World, whether the Church would go along with the desire to solemnly define Mary as Co-redemptrix, Ratzinger’s response doesn’t look good. He says that the title Co-redemptrix “departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings” (53). He also says that “for matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language” (54). “
This is not, nor will it be, dogma.
And for any Catholic who says that it is, this quote should be pointed to.
The lady doth protest too much!
One who accuses other's of screaming bloody murder should mind the caps and colors, I think.
It would seem sado-evangelism is not troubled by self-examination.
Are we gonna talk theology or are we going to leap to conclusions based on popular and informal speech?
As that great Dominican Theologian, moi, O.P. just wrote in private correspondence:
When we pray the Lord’s prayer, we formally, in the 3rd petition, ask for our will to be conformed to God’s will. WE usually don’t mean it. We usually mean, “Oh and by the way, in case you forgot, Father, here’s what your will is,Gotta go. This is getting to be a silly thread.
(1)Winning mega lottery ticket for Dawg;
(2)Dawg will lose weight;
(3) etc.,
so if I were you I’d get hopping on the whole On earth as in heaven thing, okay? THERE’s a good God ...”
But instead of lightning bolts God generously takes us as meaning better than we mean, And uses our prayer to conform our will to His.
Mary, did what we all long to do, grew Jesus within her, gazed into His eyes, rejoiced in his love and coos and gentle touch. as all mothers, as all parents, she saw His growing strength, his steps into his own vocation, and wondered.
At least from her Fiat, if not all her life, she gave her will to God in Christ and now lives in perfect conformity of will with Him.
And this is why He cannot refuse her request, because she makes no request that He does not will.
Probably would have said the same thing He told Peter: “Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.”
Then remind her: “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.”
Phil 4: 6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God;
Before you even say it, I know you will say "It doesn't say I can't pray to other than God". To that I can only say God says how to pray, why are you looking for wiggle room to do something different. Through the death of the Lord on the cross God has made a way for us to enter directly into His presence and the RCC denies that with their false doctrines about prayer. This is just one of many examples where RCs say "It doesn't say I can't". NO, it tells you what TO do and you reject it.
Now since I've obviously made a fairly good point let me predict what you will do. "By what authority do you say that?". That's the reflex of an RC upon hearing a good point that opposes what his church says. Satan has the whole logic chain clearly designed for the RC.
Same here. I need a mani-pedi and then to cut the lawns. Then the roof man is coming for an estimate, and a man coming to give me an estimate on replacing some french doors.
Lots of opportunities to listen to God today.
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