Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
>>give the poor baby a sugar t_t—i.e. a teaspoon of sugar in a corner of a hankey secured with a string or rubber band.<<
Oh that must have been fun for the baby, but not so good for those budding teeth!
When I said it was up to someone to quell reasonable doubts of innocence and that this was a Protestant principle, I was ridiculed.
Now when somebody makes some wild and crazy charges against us it is our theology and up to us to provide a defense? And all the less do I think so when I have been shown that "drive them nuts" is a strategy of some Protestant posters (and when drawing the logical conclusion from this and stating it is called "foul and disingenuous").
Let somebody show a serious interest in what we teach and display serious desire to understand and evaluate, and we can discuss all these things in candor.
Otherwise, well, what you see is what you get.
Glucosamine and condroitin have my 80-year-old father scooting around like a 60-year-old, or a billygoat.
(A)How do you reconcile that with the same passage telling us to make prayers and thanks givings and supplications and all that for others.
(B)How, exactly, does that show we are not to pray to others? There's clearly a chain of reasoning, but I don't see it.
It is a proposed Catholic doctrine. It is not a teaching of the Catholic Church.
Between?
Other posters have been defending it up until now. We have been told, repeatedly, that it is Latin and that it means “with the Redeemer”. Now that it has been pointed out to them that it’s not Latin, that it is illogical and made up, they have decided, apparently, to disown it. So it doesn’t exist. Got it
It is not. It might be the theology of "a" Catholic or "some" Catholics, but it is not a teaching of the Catholic Church.
True. true.
Fanciful.
>>There are plenty of “Vatican documents” that do not and cannot establish doctrine.<<
True, but this one’s a pretty safe bet.
I’ve done a Vatican.va search for co-redemptrix. It came up with four hits.
Every one is about people deemed to be “cults” that the Vatican shut down.
Virtually every complaint and every answer filed in every courthouse in every county of every state in the U.S. contains a “Prayer For Relief”...
Do these people seriously believe that all those litigants are blasphemers?
Stunning.
Now that Catholics have no idea where it’s from, the burden has shifted onto us to tell you, too funny
>>Again, a Catholic needs to explain to us whence it cometh, because it is illogical.<<
Well it wasn’t the Vatican so perhaps you can ask that Catholic?
I was once told that capitalizing a proper noun means bowing to that thing. Amazing!
Rope-a-dope?
Got to make dinner on this HOT day.
Be back!
That helped me, too.
But not near as much as the liquid kind. I don’t know what’s added to those ingredients . . . let me check . .
DRINKABLES ULTIMATE JOINT CARE
also in addition to those to ingrediants—colligen and MSM
The ones who claim it is a Catholic teaching should prove that it is.
A) There is a difference between the words “to” and “for”
B) Praying to someone other than God for something only God can give makes them a mediator between God and man.
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