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To: John Leland 1789
My impression is that the truth about how the Church works is so boring to you all that you have to make up elites and processes while you ignore the known history of the developments which led to the Marian encyclicals.

The fantasy church you are talking about is certainly weird and not very nice. However it has only a superficial similarity to the real Church.

But the Orwellian "three-minute hate" doesn't work so well against the real Church, so the fantasy is preferred.

You guys just go on beating up on shadows. Even shadow boxing can help strengthen one for a real fight. And maybe one day you'll see the Church for what she is and give up this fantasy of elites and so forth.

3,149 posted on 06/06/2008 5:43:02 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg
“. . . developments which led to the Marian encyclicals.”

* * * * * *

What would not be boring is to know whether there could be counter-developments that would some day lead to the overturning of the Marian Encyclicals. If the encyclicals represent doctrine that was not original Catholic doctrine, but came in to the church long after “keys” got turned, then it seems that the reverse could happen just as easily, or uneasily, as the case may be.

My view of the whole thing, though, developed from 17 years living with a Catholic dad, watching three Catholic uncles and their families who spent every holiday and every family bar-b-q with us, and six years in a Philippines barangay observing Catholic life and worship on a daily basis. Now my Catholic relatives never tried to convince me of anything with words. They were regular at Mass (well, not so much Dad), and I'm sure that they would have launched into long sarcastic (they are sarcastic people) defenses of Maryolotry had anyone ever raised an opposing view. But otherwise they were silent beer drinkers at the bar-b-qs.

I rode jeepneys (50 people stuffed into a sixteen seat tin can) in the Philippines for six full years without a furlough, and would notice that 49 of them (all but me) would cross themselves, all in unison. So I would immediately look out the window and see what all of them knew was there without looking, a statue of a woman holding her hands downward, palms out. Always looked like a Scottish lady to me. If the jeepney ride was more than two miles, that could occur five to ten times.

But, although they often stared at us for not crossing ourselves, only once in six years did anyone ever ask me what was asked, “Don't you worship our Lady?” My response was to distribute a tract that told of the sufficiency of the death of Jesus Christ to all on board.

We almost always distributed Gospel literature on the jeepneys and buses. And with the driver's permission we would often take a Bible out of our bag or pocket and preach a message or give a Bible lesson.

Our preaching, of course, never deterred those people from (always in near perfect unison) crossing themselves whenever a statue was passed, or a shrine, or a Catholic church. And we never mentioned it one time.

It was interesting that those people seemed NEVER to look outside the jeepney or bus. It was as if there was a radar signal from the statue or shrine of “Our Lady of this or that” directly to the nervous systems of those people. It was actually just habit. And I dare say that with most of them it was an unfeeling robotic-type habit. They never looked up or out toward the statue or shrine. And their conversations NEVER ceased to show respect or reverence. They would just cross themselves.

I will add that one needs to acquire a book of superstitions believed by Filipinos, which is available in almost every branch of the National Bookstore. I own a copy (along with the Catholic Marriage Laws and Catholic Marriage Annulment Laws). All those are sold from the same shelves.

I sat with about 20 Filipinos one Saturday evening reading from the book of superstitions, and they did everything from squirm in their seats to giggle red-faced. I asked what percentage of Filipinos actually guide their lives by their upbringing in such superstitions. The answer was, “Duuuhhh, 95+%!” I am talking about superstition that came from Pagan island culture that could not possibly be consistent with belief and trust in Jesus Christ or the counsels of the Word of God.

The Filipinos have added crossing themselves when passing statues and shrines to their pagan superstitions. They really believe it is “BAD LUCK” if they fail to cross themselves when riding by or walking by a statue of “Our Lady of . . . ., “ or a shrine, or a Catholic Church. Well of course, if they pass by a Lutheran church, or a Iglesia Ni Cristo church, or an evangelical church, they don't cross themselves.

So, you ask, what does my story have to do with my question at the top? Maybe absolutely nothing. Maybe I just wanted to tell a story. A story about superstitious people who daily acted robotic-ally with regard to religious trappings.

3,193 posted on 06/06/2008 6:45:00 AM PDT by John Leland 1789
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To: Mad Dawg

We’ve already seen the church for what she is. That’s why we’re in this thread and others.


3,296 posted on 06/06/2008 8:36:16 AM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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