Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
One day you were allowed to disagree with the idea and then BANG! it was dogma. Believe or be damned.
Prepare yourself.
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
hmmm... do you suppose God’s mercy endures forever?
You know that’s actually a song and not a prayer, right? Catchy refrain.
I used to could “name that tune” in less beats, but without instructions to the chief priest Asaph and what instruments to use, it takes me longer.
And yet earlier tonight when I said that "Mary did not "cooperate" in Christ's "work of restoring supernatural life to souls," you disagreed by saying Mary cooperated in Christ's "work of restoring supernatural life to souls" (which is another way of saying "saves the fallen sinner") "in her assent and submission to the will of God at the anunciation."
Again, the RC wants it both ways.
Of course we become one body, but that is *not* because we deserve it. That is fully a matter of Christ's benevolence.
So much for that vaunted "apostolic authority."
Only when it suits the current argument. Tomorrow, it may be different.
Look again. I'll even put it in big letters for you.
In the following post I have copied #2409 by Philo-Junius. The PRIMARY definition from Dictionary.com is printed in red.
lol. Absurdity suits their argument.
They have nothing to hold onto, no anchor. They even get “the Rock” wrong. After that, it’s all shifting sand.
??
Except that the secondary definition, which you omitted, eviscerates your argument that the phrase can be understood in only one way.
Good night. This old man is tired.
Mediate is WAY off and is a horrible misuse of language. If you think asking someone to pray for you is the same as "mediation"--especially when intercession is the term used earlier in the same passage--not mediation, then you're WAY off. To EVEN BRING UP, "If I ask you to pray for me" in a thread about MARY, it is YOU WHO BROUGHT SUMMONING THE DEAD INTO THE CONVERSATION--NOT ME.
That deep-seated emptiness must be filled with something. So it gets filled with physical sensations like incense and incantations and kneeling pads, and earthly hoops to jump through like performing penance to atone for sins already paid for by Christ, and monastic men standing before you who are named as "another Christ," and moldy relics and icons to kneel before, and wooden statues to pray to, and the physicality of the Lord's Supper trumping its spiritual truth, and most especially this unseemly, unScriptural adoration of Mary which very nearly sounds like some weird incestuous relationship whereby the mother and Son are on the cross together.
I read some of the catechism tonight concerning Mary and the language is really bizarre.
As we’ve seen from these discussions, the RCC believes a word can mean any number of things depending on the time of day and the turning of the moon.
Funny in Matt 12:46-50, Jesus didn't seem to mind disobeying His earthly mother. Why would it change at the cross? In John 5, He broke the Sabbath law. So neither point would make Jesus obliged to come down from the cross.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.