Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Back to overt Marianism:
How does De Montefort know what Mary desired? Also, if the Holy Spirit calls her "Alma Mater" where is that recorded?
In what way is she more hidden than most every other female. What are her mysteries. What is her resurrection and assumption? How can he say that her parents didn't really know her.
I just felt the need of some “cleansing prayer” posted on this thread, this morning, after all of yesterday’s prolific protestant preachiness.
I’ve given some thought to the Luke 20, 34-38 scripture that the protties interpreted as only applying to married people in heaven. If I recall correctly, they finally, after quite a bit of hesitation, came up with only the face value of Christ’s words, failing to understand that the Savior speaks on many levels, and that nothing He says to the Pharisees is ever limited in meaning to the one tiny example the Pharisees try to trap Him with.
This would be typical of the protties: nit-picking Christ’s words, if possible into meaninglessness (or whatever meaning they choose to inject). Similar to the way they pick and choose which sola scriptura to take literally and which not.
I just have a question, here....St. Mary, Queen of Heaven, has inspired many to work for pro-life causes here on earth, and I am just wondering which protties think abortion is okay, and if that is part of their denigration of the Catholic Church—? Because I KNOW that some of the myriad denominations support abortion rights. Could this be behind some of the ridicule and mocking of the RCs?
I grew up in "the system" and never really appreciated Our Lady, until I became a mother. She helped me personally at a very tough moment in my life. She is definitely special and lead me to Jesus. I thought I had him, I didn't. She helped me and I appreciate her. I recognize God's love in her.
"The Blessed Virgin Mary suffered more by seeing her Divine Son suffer than if she had endured His Passion herself. What parent would not without hesitation volunteer for any martyrdom in order to save their child? Why is this? It is due to love, and also would it not be a greater suffering to see them suffer than to suffer for them? Mary loved the life of her Son many times more than she loved her own. Nothing could have caused our Blessed Mother's suffering more than witnessing The Passion. Saint Bernard states it thus: "The soul is where it loves, rather than where it lives." Our Lord speaks the same sentiment: "Where your treasure is, there also will your heart be (Lk 12:34)."
After that last rope-a-dope...I wouldn't waste my time.
The one where you were trying to tell the mod how to do their job.
JA your emotion filled post deserves some De Montfort too.
Thank you.
On this we agree as well. Unless it is a valid Catholic mass, it is just crackers and grape juice. Your church could only have a symbol, not the Real Presence.
Thank you for that admission. We all need to remember this moment.
Sado-evangelists agree on something!
Right, because the only thing the protties can point to is the scriptures. Lacking Holy Tradition and the Eucharist, they are stuck with TOPIOS, and I think it makes some of them feel inadequate--hence the frothing passion with which they assert nothing else matters.
The Mod did say that to some, getting this way is their way of worshiping Our Lord.
What can I say?
>>St. Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be thou our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray. And do thou, o prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God cast into hell Satan, and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world, seeking the ruin of souls.
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from Your Presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.<<
Amen!!!
Actually, MOST Bible-believing Christians are Catholic or Orthodox and we DO NOT agree with this statement.
It's time that the Protestant MINORITY learns that they DO NOT speak for the majority who disagree with them. In fact, if they were wise Protestants would start looking into why they don't even agree amonst themselves, for THIS is the PROOF of the failure of YOPIOS.
Anything like that in the New Testament? Even of sheol, it was disputed among the Jews. Of course, Catholics believe the "Harrowing of Hell" made a real difference in the status of human souls vis à vis heaven -- Protestants seem to be all over the map on it, so I can't guess where you are.
Bible believing is as bible believing does.
Do you have a Scriptural basis for that?
In the Vatican's view?
The Vatican has not made a declaration regarding "co-redemptrix." It's not a teaching of the Catholic Church.
>>The Vatican has not made a declaration regarding “co-redemptrix.” It’s not a teaching of the Catholic Church<<
An extremely important point!
Absolutely false. Catholics are Bible-believing Christians too.
...in clear contradiction to what Rome teaches.
The capital city of Italy is a teacher? Amazing.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.