Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
No one should personalize and parties are guilty on both sides.
Look at the string of posts that led to this.
wagglebee to netmilsmom
Some here are so blinded by their hatred, they don’t think through the unintended consequences of their words.
to which Marysecretary said
To: wagglebee
Why don’t you get off that hatred kick? We don’t hate you any more than you hate us.
Now Wagglebee never said that Mary hated him. But she personalized his post.
Marysecretary is a fine example. I really think she loves me and believe her when she says she does. She is very sweet and I adore her, yet she said hateful things about RC doctrine and has stated that she is trying to save us. I believe that is sincere, she is a beautiful woman.
So when she says something, IMO, nasty about what I do, I try not to take it personally. It’s really the big picture isn’t it?
(hope that wasn’t against the rules)
It sure isn’t in YOUR scriptures.
For the thousandth time.
I missed it. Probably just as well.
It’s also stupid. Filled with hate is not something I subscribe to. Arggghhh.
>>I don’t even hate him for his ways.<<
Right! You don’t hate him at all.
His ways are something different or you would not care whether you “saved” him or not.
That’s what I’m saying. We don’t hate each other. We hate each others ways. It’s not personal.
It gets tiring to listen to all the groaning and moaning about how we ‘hate’ Catholics. If only they understood...
you didn't reference the post number, so I have to ask, was he referencing one of Mary's posts when he wrote that?
http://www.apparitions.org/mariamante.html/
The book is amazing. It was one of the most enlightening books I have ever read! Other than the bible of course. (you gotta be carefull with what you say around here).I am compelled to tell you this so consider it a divine message.
The many apparitions of Mary and God speaking through "Saints" is not Catholic teaching. Believe what you will but many of your fellow Catholics will vociferously deny the "we believe" part.
It’s common sense, antoninus. We’re not robots. We have a mind. Use it.
Why, don’t you believe that people go to purgatory and then later on they can go to heaven? I don’t think anyone really knows for one hundred percent certain when we go to heaven. I like to think our spirits go right after death. Our bodies won’t at that time. I don’t believe our spirits, if they are in heaven after our death, have anything to say about what goes on here on earth. No tears in heaven, remember? If they saw what was going on here and with beloved family members, they’d have tears alright.
FTD...let me understand what you have stated, so that I can be clear as to your meaning...are you saying that you have come to the belief that Catholics are not even Christians, because the Bible has decided that Catholics are not even Christians?...
Do you hold this belief about all those who consider themselves to be Catholics?....do you hold this belief about all Catholics, whether they are practicing or non-practicing Catholics?....do you completely eliminate all Catholics, from the Christian family?
Thanks in advance, for any reply...
May I count on you for an authentic answer?
I take communion in our church and it’s a wonderful experience. Do I believe it is the actual blood and body of our Lord Jesus Christ? Of course not. I already have the fullness of faith found in my Lord Jesus Christ and in His Holy Spirit which indwells me.
How that sentence translates into hatred of anything is a stretch at best, and just more whining and crying that some here are persecuted. It's nuts
As a mother I certainly understant much better. I used to criticize our priests, God has enlightened me to appreciate the special gifts that they are. As a mother, the role model of Mother Mary is essential for me and my daughter. The examples of the Saints are precious testimony for my sons and daughters. I would have never said that 15 years ago. They are simply wonderfull gifts God has given our families, not "evil". Of course we don't all believe the exact same way. Do Protestants?
>>wagglebee to netmilsmom Some here are so blinded by their hatred, they don’t think through the unintended consequences of their words.
you didn’t reference the post number, so I have to ask, was he referencing one of Mary’s posts when he wrote that? <<
I’m sorry about the numbers.
He was actually answering my post
To: wagglebee
>>Those in Heaven are “dead”? <<
Kind of blows that whole “Eternal Life” thing out of the water, doesn’t it?
2,013<<
But it was Mary that said that Mary the Mother of Jesus was dead.
The words that she used, were about our dogma and Wagglebee can answer better than I can. But understanding that Mary is a sweet person, if I were in Wagglebees position, I would not mean “marysecretary” hates me, but that her words, now and in the past have shown that she hates RC dogma.
See?
No I don’t see
I was told one doesn't need common sense if they know the Truth.
Have you ever looked at the wikipedia entry for Magisterium? It’s quite good.
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