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The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; mary; rcc; romancatholic
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To: DungeonMaster

No, those verses have ALWAYS been there.


1,921 posted on 06/04/2008 11:57:34 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: DungeonMaster
Do you believe that by reading that I will see that it is justifiable scripture and belongs in my bible?

*****************

You had a question. I offered you an answer.

Have a good day.

1,922 posted on 06/04/2008 11:59:54 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Petronski
What is this perverted protestant obsession on this topic? Of all the crass, horrible trains of thought...that level of evil boggles the mind.

***************

Agreed.

1,923 posted on 06/04/2008 12:02:11 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: DungeonMaster; Dr. Eckleburg

And don’t forget, she is apparently the woman in Genesis, and therefore Christ’s “wife”. Man, the convolutions this theology takes


1,924 posted on 06/04/2008 12:02:51 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
LOL. It's not the reformed who disbelieve God's word or think they know more than He does...

It is the "reformed" who call Christ a liar for his instructions and commands at the Last Supper, not the Catholics.

...or presume to take the glory that belongs to God alone and carelessly disperse it among the creatures as if it were their own.

The Catholic Church doesn't teach that either.

1,925 posted on 06/04/2008 12:04:56 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: 1000 silverlings; DungeonMaster; Dr. Eckleburg; Petronski; trisham
And don’t forget, she is apparently the woman in Genesis, and therefore Christ’s “wife”.

WHO has said this?

Genesis 3:15 refers to "the woman" and "her Seed." The Seed is quite obviously the Child of the woman.

Who is the woman, who is the Seed?

1,926 posted on 06/04/2008 12:06:38 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: OLD REGGIE; Mad Dawg; 1000 silverlings; Marysecretary; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; HarleyD; Quix; ...
If these "names" are from private replies or email I agree with you completely.

I've recently had a FReepmail from a Catholic poster who admonished me for something I wrote in a private FReepmail addressed to someone else.

I FReepmailed back asking how that person was able to read my private FReepmail.

Their response was "I got it from someone else."

So there does seem to be some duplicity going around. Pretty tacky. The funny thing is there is nothing in FReepmail I would be afraid to say on the open forum.

Are you an undercover Dominican?

LOL. I think that's the M.O of the Society of Jesuits.

Are you currently in the witness protection program?

That would explain a lot. 8~)

1,927 posted on 06/04/2008 12:07:28 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: All
Some of the biggest influences in Catholics are the apparitions of Jesus and Mary. The apparition of Guadalupe in the 1500's AD, converted millions to Jesus. They continue to this day. The apparition of Our Lady in Medjugorje, in 1981, warned us about the threat of communism.

Message of May 25, 2008 "Dear children! In this time of grace, when God has permitted me to be with you, little children, I call you anew to conversion. Work on the salvation of the world in a special way while I am with you. God is merciful and gives special graces, therefore, seek them through prayer. I am with you and do not leave you alone. Thank you for having responded to my call."

Please take time to review the apparitions and the messages. She loves us all, even if we don't love her back. She always leads us to Jesus. http://www.apparitions.org/

Sorry that I can't figure out the HTML links right now, I have baby on my lap.

1,928 posted on 06/04/2008 12:09:07 PM PDT by mgist (Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hear)
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To: maryz

Ping to 1,908.


1,929 posted on 06/04/2008 12:09:07 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: mgist

http://www.apparitions.org/

:)


1,930 posted on 06/04/2008 12:11:37 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: mgist; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix; OLD REGGIE
Please take time to review the apparitions and the messages.

I'm still looking for someone to explain to me why all these "apparitions" or depictions thereof, have the Egyptian Goddess Hathor's global ball and horns. Maybe you know

1,931 posted on 06/04/2008 12:11:44 PM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Looks like Antoninus clearly is suggesting he says "thank you to them" if he recovers.

Your doctorate is obviously in misinterpretation. Nowhere did I say that the prayers of the the saints heal you. God heals. The prayers of the saints (both on earth and in heaven) simply ask God to heal. By what authority do you say that God is deaf to the prayers of his saints?
1,932 posted on 06/04/2008 12:13:04 PM PDT by Antoninus (John 6:54)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
So there does seem to be some duplicity going around. Pretty tacky. The funny thing is there is nothing in FReepmail I would be afraid to say on the open forum.

*******************

There's nothing stopping you from posting that private message now.

1,933 posted on 06/04/2008 12:13:28 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Petronski
It is the "reformed" who call Christ a liar for his instructions and commands at the Last Supper, not the Catholics.

Such grand hypocrisy, huh?

They gag on "do this," then try to push "remembrance" down everyone's throat.

1,934 posted on 06/04/2008 12:14:22 PM PDT by papertyger
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To: Petronski; Marysecretary; Antoninus
lol. Anyone who can read knows what the sentence said.

Geesh. This gets sillier all the time. Thank God for paper trails and post 1,832.

1,935 posted on 06/04/2008 12:16:10 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Petronski

Anything you say. Then I will assume you will refer to me as Dr. Eckleburg every time you mention my name.


1,936 posted on 06/04/2008 12:17:30 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: wagglebee
Of course if the Blessed Mother was incapable of declining this would mean that she also lacked free will and would therefore be incapable of committing sin.

Of course if there was any possibility whatsoever that she would decline it would mean God did not know what was going to happen.

Do you remember the angel telling Mary "you will conceive...".

1,937 posted on 06/04/2008 12:18:45 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Yes, thank God for paper trails. They show how you mischaracterized his words


1,938 posted on 06/04/2008 12:18:49 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: trisham

Your awesome!


1,939 posted on 06/04/2008 12:20:09 PM PDT by mgist (Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hear)
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To: OLD REGGIE

So, you’re saying that Mary had no free will?


1,940 posted on 06/04/2008 12:23:26 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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