The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[OLD REGGIE]

Catholics will, I hope, be forgiven for not pinning the truth of all their Marian doctrines upon the infallibility of the KJV translators.

What in the world is the connection between "blood brother" and the KJV?

[papertyger]

Reject the Church, reject the authority that determined the New Testament. Quite a catch-22 protestants created for themselves.

Nothing a little naked duplicity won't fix.

[Petronski]

In the macro sense, is this wikipedia entry fairly accurate?

[Petronski]

He was deliberately and expressly general:

...all their Marian doctrines...

[wagglebee]

I thought everything in Wikipedia was a “pagan fable”.

[Petronski]

Many wiki entries on contentious topics can be . . . uh . . . less than trustworthy. Thus, I thought I’d ask.

[OLD REGGIE]

>>Catholics will, I hope, be forgiven for not pinning the truth of all their Marian doctrines upon the infallibility of the KJV translators<<

;-)

Except the post was an extraneous slur against the KJV. If you think that's funny laugh away.

[Uri’el-2012]

http://www.tjcii.org/userfiles/Image/messianic-jewish-movement-an-inttroduction-Eng.pdf

http://tjcii.org/userfiles/File/To_the_Jew_First.pdf?PHPSESSID=1dccf2161dbda15b9d6cebd290057b15

http://www.tushiyah.org/CallOnHisName.pdf

[Mad Dawg]

And thanks again.

[netmilsmom]

>>Except the post was an extraneous slur against the KJV. If you think that’s funny laugh away. <<

Not really. It didn’t say the NJV but those who translated it.

From a Catholic’s POV, understanding that we have scholars translating meanings for us, this was in no way a slam on the King James Version of the Bible itself.

Sorry you took it that way.

[Petronski]

The first pdf is quite comprehensive and informative. I’m glad to have it.

[Uri’el-2012]

Do you think a good argument runs along the line of "This is what Jesus said in Aramaic. Sadly we don't have any evidence to prove it."?

Amen !

[OLD REGGIE]

What context would that be? And if the Holy Spirit wanted you to understand that all these “Brothers” were of Mary, wouldn’t you think He would have made it abundantly clear, even without a proper greek word?

Most Protestants (I used to be a faithful, learned one) :) Would say it is abundantly clear beginning with "he knew her not until..." and continuing with "Your mother and your brothers are outside, asking for you." .

On the other hand where is the Bodily Assumption Of Mary even hinted at in Scripture? Don't you suppose the Holy Spirit would have made abundantly clear in Scripture if He wanted you to know it?

[netmilsmom]

>>Don’t you suppose the Holy Spirit would have made abundantly clear in Scripture if He wanted you to know it?<<

He passed on the message! The Vatican got the message and passed it on to me.

[netmilsmom]

>>Gee it’ll be too dark to cut the grass then, won’t it. <<

They had GRASS? ;-)

[netmilsmom]

>>Do you think a good argument runs along the line of “This is what Jesus said in Aramaic. Sadly we don’t have any evidence to prove it.”? <<

The answer would be in the context, as Quix stated.

[netmilsmom]

>>Most Protestants <<

And let’s face it, most Protestants would NOT look at it another way. Even if it is very evident.

Why should they, they’re Protestants? Nothing wrong with that.

[papertyger]

Except the post was an extraneous slur against the KJV. If you think that's funny laugh away.

Now here's an opportunity for some real bridge-building. Will you take it? Will you acknowledge you're accusing the poster of slur against the KJV, when any normative reading of what was said would recognize the poster was mocking the uneducated, dogmatic, devotees of a particular translation of the Bible?

All you have to do is admit you accused him of something he didn't do, and we'll know you are more interested in truth than "winning."

Will you admit you are ignoring his criticism of certain people deserving of criticism, and accusing him of criticizing something that would degrade his credibility if true?

[OLD REGGIE]

That would be dreadful if true and a great attack on, indeed a refutation of, the Church's claims. The Church Catholic is for all and it touches every aspect of life. It is catholic intensively and extensively, in principle if not in fact. It is for the 80 IQ and the 120 IQ, for the 60IQ and the 140IQ and so on right out to the ends of the scale. If not it is not catholic.

Good for you. Well said.

I might go a little farther though. :)

Some are meant to be Catholic and God is with them.

Some are meant to be Protestant and God is with them.

Some are meant to be "other" and God is with them.

God is with all who wish to be with Him.

[papertyger]

Don't you suppose the Holy Spirit would have made abundantly clear in Scripture if He wanted you to know it?

No, and until you can find a Scriptural passage that says the Holy Spirit would make all things "abundantly clear" to you, the question fails by your own standard.