The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[Quix]

Time and The Lord will tell if there’s any other import to my words beyond speaking for myself.

[Petronski]

Is that a threat?

LOLOLOLOL

[Quix]

How convenient.

And of course, the RC vulcanized very flexible ‘Bibles’ got it right?

cue laughing dog, laughing bear, laughing mouse . . .

[netmilsmom]

I think it’s Jimmy Swaggart and he signed up in May 2008!

[Quix]

AS I understand it

in the root word meanings and in the contexxt.

[Uri’el-2012]

Koine doesn’t have the vocabulary for the distinction you make to be present in the original text. Brothers, stepbrothers and even cousinss are indifferently referred to as adelphoi in Greek throughout the Septuagint

How do you explain GSN-4773

4773 suggenh,j suggenes {soong-ghen-ace'}
Meaning: 1) of the same kin, akin to, related by blood
2) in a wider sense, of the same race, a fellow countryman
Origin: from 4862 and 1085; TDNT - 7:736,1097; adj
Usage: AV - kinsman 7, cousin 2, kinsfolk 2, kin 1; 12

<4773b> suggeni,j suggenis
Meaning: a kinswoman
Origin: fem. from 4773a
Usage: relative(1).
Notes: (1) Lit this is the sixth month to her who

[Quix]

Actually, in my thread analysis, I may be able to get some statistics on that score.

My gut raw impression is that I turn the other cheek far far far more than a list of RC’s do.

But, as St Paul demonstrated, there’s a time when one insists that the officials do not get away with slinking one out the back door in the middle of the night but they must come and escort one out the front door in broad daylight.

On most days . . . I probably get a handful to a dozen often very mean-spirited personal assaults from RC’s . . . usually without even a warning delivered to them. And I don’t respond remotely in kind, if at all.

How many personal assaults do you think I’d get away with?

[Admin Moderator]

If you get a headache from discussing and defending what you believe, don't get on this site,

You have no right to lecture a poster like that. Your stay on Free Republic may be ended abruptly if you continue to post in that vein.

[netmilsmom]

>>AS I understand it

in the root word meanings and in the contexxt.<<

What context would that be? And if the Holy Spirit wanted you to understand that all these “Brothers” were of Mary, wouldn’t you think He would have made it abundantly clear, even without a proper greek word?

[Mad Dawg]

Some folks just aren’t smart enough for Catholicism

That would be dreadful if true and a great attack on, indeed a refutation of, the Church's claims. The Church Catholic is for all and it touches every aspect of life. It is catholic intensively and extensively, in principle if not in fact. It is for the 80 IQ and the 120 IQ, for the 60IQ and the 140IQ and so on right out to the ends of the scale. If not it is not catholic.

I'm sorry, but I feel very strongly about this. I have baptized seriously retarded children, and though I was an Episcopalian when I did it, I didn't baptize them into a "denomination", I baptized them into Christ and His Church. So we teach, and so I believe.

We must consider that wisdom comes from God, It is infused, a gift, whose first manifestation is the "fear' of the Lord.

And wisdom gives us to understand, even without reading I Cor 12, that none of us can do everything, and that all of us in some things must be humble. I cannot do foot surgery, and I obeyed what my surgeon said. My surgeon cannot (or, at least, does not) do theology and should "obey" (from "ob" + "audire" -> listen intently) to those who under the aegis of the Church do "do theology.

I am a not so bad arm-chair theologian. A man I very much admire and who influenced (unbeknownst to him) my choice of my name in religion is leaving our parish to go and do doctorate in ST with an emphasis on Sacramental Theology. You can bet your, ah, bippy I will "obey" him -- though most of my obedience will be querulous and argumentative. He's smarter than I, not LD, and is going to study with some good guys.

Protestants who think nothing pf trusting their money to financial planners or their health to physicians, seem unable to understand that a relationship with Christ which might lead to someone's being a dazzlingly bright beacon of Sanctity does not necessarily qualify one as a theologian. A physician who only understands the biomechanics of football but who couldn't throw a football ten feet, may still be a legitimate authority for some aspects of John Elway's life. The trainer is not the athlete and does not wear the wreathe or the medal, but he still has legitimate authority over some aspects of the athlete's life. The race is ours, is each individual's to run, but some are better qualified to give advice on how to run than are others.

Some of our brothers do not understand this. They are still fit to run, and indeed called by God to run with us and wearing the same colors. That they are froward and will not accept the qualified trainers does not excuse or disqualify them from the team.

[Quix]

It boggles my mind . . .

The RM has mentioned the example of the RC’s outraged over some of us Prottys use of “Roman” in “Roman Catholic.”

Yet within a few short posts of that outrage, an RC had labeled a Protty a tool, son or stooge or some such

OF SATAN

and the Protty didn’t flinch, bat an eye or even think it worth noticing much at all, if at all.

I have yet to see ANY EVIDENCE THAT ANY RC has learned anything from that OUTRAGEOUSLY STARK DIFFERENCE between the chronic habits of the two camps.

Very telling.

[Philo-Junius]

But the New Testament is not part of the Septuagint, nor were St. Elizabeth and the Blessed Virgin brothers.

[Mad Dawg]

Paragraphs (<p>) are your friend

[Petronski]

The one with the 80 IQ who becomes Catholic is much smarter than the one with the 140 IQ who spends her days persecuting Catholics based on anti-Catholic lies and false charges.

[netmilsmom]

>>How many personal assaults do you think I’d get away with?<<

I’ve seen you dish it out and I’ve seen others dish it out. Trust me, my FRiend there are very few angels here.

I’m no angel and neither are you. That is not meant to be insulting, just fact.

[netmilsmom]

>>Very telling.<<

Yes it is. Link me to that thread so I can see.
Because let me tell you, I have gotten on more than one Catholic for crossing the line.

We are bigger than that and don’t need to.

[Philo-Junius]

To expand:

Koine and classical Greek did have words to suggest the relationship of cousin-german—”anepsios”—and broader, non-specific kinship—”suggenes.” But neither was preferred to adelphoi in referring to legal sons of the same father.

Greek did not distinguish between stepsons and blood brothers at that time and today uses the word “progonos,” which in koine times meant only “elders” or “ancestors.” Greece and the Middle East at the time were entirely patriarchal; it was the relationship of the children to the father which was determinative. Since Jesus and the brothers were, under the Orthodox thesis, both understand to be fathered by Joseph according to the Law, it was entirely unremarkable that the Gospels made note of Jesus’ adelphoi.

[Mad Dawg]

Well, wiser — with infused wisdom.

[Quix]

Thanks for an interesting discourse.

My bias remains to take Scripture at face value.

There are deep things to dig out of Scripture . . . I don’t think the deep digging requires a lot more than Holy Spirit’s instruction though scholarly helps and refs can be of some aid.

The righteous gold in Scripture is usually quite accessible to the simplest child of good heart.

I get wary of too much lofty intellectual scholarship as foisted on the laity as necessary for “FULL AND ACCURATE” Scriptural comprehension.

The RELIGIOUS RULERS in Jerusalem 2000 years ago had the best of all that plus Scripture memorized. Didn’t help them know the truth a bit.

Your elaborate explanation for your perspective is worth pondering.

Thanks.

[Marysecretary]

I don’t see anyone here who envies her devotion and obedience to Christ. That’s just not true, Petronski. We don’t elevate her like Catholics do, but we call her blessed for her obedience to Him.