Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
It must be known from Man-made fables.It is not in the Holy Word of G-d.
b'SHEM Yah'shua
It certainly is, for those who have eyes to see.
So, unless I misunderstand you, you are agreeing that we can read the Bible without consulting the Magisterium at every step. Good.
You make valid points; however, if a large portion of the congregation leaves en masse, I would have to conclude that there has been some sort of failing at either the parish or diocesan level.
It certainly is, for those who have eyes to see.
Please provide the citation.
I would expect you to provide some reliable information before calling me a liar.
However, I DID NOT call you a liar.
Can you indicate a Protestant denomination that has a reading schedule that includes the ENTIRE Bible over a proscribed period of time?
Oh, and a few more according to scripture.
Thank you for making my point! The Catholic Church teaches that marriage is a Sacrament from which springs forth new life. As for artificial contraception, what does the Catholic Church teach?
HUMANAE VITAE
Neither is it valid to argue, as a justification for sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive, that a lesser evil is to be preferred to a greater one, or that such intercourse would merge with procreative acts of past and future to form a single entity, and so be qualified by exactly the same moral goodness as these. Though it is true that sometimes it is lawful to tolerate a lesser moral evil in order to avoid a greater evil or in order to promote a greater good," it is never lawful, even for the gravest reasons, to do evil that good may come of it (18)—in other words, to intend directly something which of its very nature contradicts the moral order, and which must therefore be judged unworthy of man, even though the intention is to protect or promote the welfare of an individual, of a family or of society in general. Consequently, it is a serious error to think that a whole married life of otherwise normal relations can justify sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive and so intrinsically wrong.
HUMANAE VITAE
As I have repeatedly pointed out, it is so much easier for a pew Catholic to leave and follow a Bible toting protestant minister who will tell him this teaching is wrong.
The influx of protestants to the Catholic Church are theologians who have studied Scripture, read the Early Church Fathers and recognize how God works through His Church to ensure the future and Salvation of mankind.
There is no one citation. I don’t trade chapter/verse citations like some kind of game of Go Fish.
If I kiss my Bible, and you think I worship leather, how do you expect me to make you understand that I love the word of God? No matter how I try and explain my reasoning, I obviously can't MAKE you change your erroneous preceptions. That is not my problem, or lack of knowledge. It is yours. I'll pray for you.
More protestant error. **sigh**
Believe it or not I was told today that capitalizing a word is the same as bowing to the thing described that word.
Oh, and grammar causes dizziness.
ROFLMTO
book mark
Since you can not provide a citation that Miriam only had one child.
It must therefore by a pagan fable.
b'SHEM Yah'shua
You don't have that kind of power. It is not that I cannot, it is that I do not.
You said: There is no one citation. I don’t trade chapter/verse citations like some kind of game of Go Fish.
You would if you were drawn into bibliolatry and worshiped the book instead of Our Lord Jesus Christ, fully present in the tabernacles of Catholic Churches around the world, as well as in Orthodox Churches.
Just be glad you don’t worship a book.
Why?
These are Catholic bishops.
In general, if you leave me alone on these threads, I will leave you alone.
The counterargument, of course, is Jesus’ entrusting of Mary to St. John, which would have been unnecessary and impious (in that he was denying His brothers the chance to fulfill a mitzvoh) if He had indeed had brothers whom the law would have mandated to care for her.
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