Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
***”That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places” — Eph. 1:17-20***
Yes, Christ came for us all, not the high school student council who have amounted to nothing in their real lives and require SOMETHING to assure themselves with.
There is nothing wrong with Ephesians. Read the whole epistle. We are all God’s chosen; it is man who rejects God, and not vice versa. God came to save the whole world. It is not the selected elite elect self named and self identified that choose God’s chosen.
***Married to a former Catholic who was trained by Jesuits through grad school and who, by the grace of God, is now a reformed Christian who knows whom he has believed.***
1 Peter 5:
1
1 So I exhort the presbyters 2 among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed.
2
Tend the flock of God in your midst, (overseeing) not by constraint but willingly, as God would have it, not for shameful profit but eagerly.
3
Do not lord it over those assigned to you, but be examples to the flock.
4
And when the chief Shepherd is revealed, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. 3
5
4 Likewise, you younger members, 5 be subject to the presbyters. And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for: “God opposes the proud but bestows favor on the humble.”
6
So humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time.
7
Cast all your worries upon him because he cares for you.
8
Be sober and vigilant. Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for (someone) to devour.
9
Resist him, steadfast in faith, knowing that your fellow believers throughout the world undergo the same sufferings.
10
The God of all grace who called you to his eternal glory through Christ (Jesus) will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you after you have suffered a little.
11
To him be dominion forever. Amen.
The devil devours many who have heard the word of God. It is sad that people actually leave the Church of Christ for the church of Calvin.
***As Seinfeld said to the lady at the rental car booth, “You know how to take the reservation; you just don’t know how to keep the reservation.”***
Not content to return your verses of misunderstood Paul to my quotes of the Gospels, now you are quoting Seinfeld (Jewish on both his mother’s and father’s sides) to me about Jesus.
Oy vey.
***Congratulations, Gargantua. You’re earning your stripes at lightening speed.***
What is this? Earn? Nothing of value is earned in the Reformed lineup, Dr. E. It is either given by the Reformed Holy Spirit or it is as filthy rags.
Or have things changed in the last 15 minutes amongst yet another church of men?
Doctor, could you please explain why the above statement from your page should be accepted as truth? Is it from the bible? Is it not true that since time is an invention of man that there is no time in God?
You are right that men don’t elect themselves, we don’t earn Grace it is a gift from God.
You can also quote Scripture to me all day long but your own personal interpretation of Scripture, if it truly IS your own personal interpretation of Scripture and not influenced by the traditions of man; are not mine.
By earning stripes, Dr. E. just means that one has got the attention or ire of a Catholic. That is the purpose of the game.
Don’t expect an answer.
INDEED.
Thanks for your kind reply.
Amen.
So, the Angel Gabriel LIED?
No, the verse is mistranslated in the Catholic bible.
It should be 'highly favored', not 'full of grace'.
LOL!
Only Catholics can understand the mysterious catechism!
Thank you, may God bless you also.
Nobody has EVER suggested that the Blessed Virgin Mary was "perfect" and I challenge you to show otherwise.
The RCC teaches that Mary was born sinless and lived sinless.
What do you consider perfect?
[ The 'fully human' definition as being sinless is from one of your fellow RCC posters, it is not mine.]
I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here. The immaculate state of Mary's soul does not make her "perfect" or "divine" in any way.
If Mary was born without sin and lived without sin, she would be as perfect as Christ.
So, it is not only the immaculate conception, but the fact that Mary was suppose to have lived sinless as well.
Please tell me, what does the phrase, "Blessed art thou AMONG women mean to you"?
It means she was blessed among women, she was chosen to bear the Messiah, who would die for HER sins, that she committed in life like anyone else.
Note the expression, 'among women', she was not blessed above all mankind!
She was blessed in being able to do something only a woman can do, bear children.
Do you agree that she sinnned as a human being?
FACT! or FICTION! (They both begin with "F" so they're the same thing according to the logic introduced here.)
Fact or Fiction, Mary was a sinner?
The idea of argument is to stay on topic.
We are discussing Mary and her humanity, not systematic theology.
Was Mary born sinless and did she live sinless is the question that this thread is addressing, not the image of God in man.
In the Mad Dawg universe, being born sinless and living sinless, and being the only other human being other then Christ to do so, is suppose to be unimportant.
Adam was sinless (at first) but saying that in blasphemous? Wow!
When did I say that was blasphemous?
Saying that Mary was born sinless is blasphemous since she is not the Second Adam, Christ is.
But why don't you state what you really believe that Mary is the second Eve?
That is what you are saying if you say that Mary was born sinless like Christ and comparing Christ to Adam.
Ofcourse, this would make Mary both Christ's mother and His bride, bizarre to say the least!
Sounds more like Semiaris and Nimrod, the mother becoming the wife.
Such a sorry substitute for logic! Like in one respect is not equal in all respects.
I stated one aspect, that she was likewise without sin.
She is considered equal to Christ in that aspect by you, isn't she?
The other aspects follow later, to where she is actually involved in the salvation process-is she not?
Such a sorry substitute for truth!
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