Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
If and when that happens, I trust God to move them to a sound church.
Unity in the face of Rome's blasphemy is a compromise with the devil. The PCUSA may have fallen victim to the humanistic foolishness of modern life, but the RCC's embedded idolatry is rancid to the core.
There is not "other mediator." There is no "another Christ."
“The presumption is there. You have made God in your image. It’s exactly backward. You think you have a God that saves you as He wills, but that isn’t what you believe.
You believe your Faith wills it and it is God’s will but it is really your own. You are telling God you are acceptable. Not the other way around.
There is an arrogance to Calvinism”
Congratulations, the above statement has just earned the “Billy Madison” award for the year. It is an honor to bestow this with the following hallowed verse from the classic movie,
“What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.”
(applause)
Ephesians 1. I like Eph 1.
3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavens, 4
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as he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blemish before him. In love
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he destined us for adoption to himself through Jesus Christ, in accord with the favor of his will,
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for the praise of the glory of his grace that he granted us in the beloved.
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In him we have redemption by his blood, the forgiveness of transgressions, in accord with the riches of his grace
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that he lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight,
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he has made known to us the mystery 5 of his will in accord with his favor that he set forth in him
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as a plan for the fullness of times, to sum up all things in Christ, in heaven and on earth.
All things, Dr. E. All men and all the world.
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In him we were also chosen, destined in accord with the purpose of the one who accomplishes all things according to the intention of his will,
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so that we might exist for the praise of his glory, we who first hoped 6 in Christ.
The Jews.
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In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed 7 with the promised holy Spirit,
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which is the first installment 8 of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory.
The Gentiles are also promised to be included as God’s possession. Installment of inheritance does not mean a guaranteed receipt. The seal is the mark of God - baptism. And God has made a down payment to us - the gift of His Grace.
I really wish that you guys could read what is actually there instead of making up fairy stories about the magically selected elite elect - and you’re one of them.
I am not using an artless dodge. But you go right ahead and think so.
So it's your position that after Confession, the priest doesn't hand out a number of "Our Fathers" and "Hail Marys" to be repeated as a part of the ritual of absolution? Please clarify.
Can I laugh a little first?
Okay. I'm done laughing.
This may be a little hard to follow, and a lot of Protestants call this "spin" — or at least one does.
BUT, what you said was
Yet what does Catholicism preach? Say 10 "Our Fathers and 12"Hail Marys" and you'll be forgiven!!??Now I don't think you meant "And" in the sense of "Both these things are true," as in "The Sky is blue and you'll be forgiven." I think you meant the "and" to suggest that saying the prayers would bring about forgiveness. You meant, I think, IF you say these prayers, THEN you will be forgiven. Maybe I misunderstood.
So yes, at the end of the sacrament of penance we engage in a little negotiation over a "penance". But the absolution is pronounced unconditionally. It's not, "IF you do whatever you and Father So and So agreed to," but, well, the whole pronouncement of forgiveness and absolution. So it is quite wrong to say the forgiveness depends on some "work" of the penitent.
I hope that is sufficient clarification.
All I can conclude is that you had lousy catechesis. There's a lot of that going around. I am blessed because I learned my stuff from reading and discussing what I read and thought,with pious and learned men, not all of whom were Catholics.
R*E*A*D
T*H*E
B*I*B*L*E.
It makes perfect sense. This is what Calvinists believe.
They are telling God that they have Faith enough for Him to elect them.
Insulting me isn’t going to change the fact that Calvinism is essentially arrogant.
Who exalts himself in the church against Christ?
One man.
You said: R*E*A*D T*H*E B*I*B*L*E.
Not sufficient. Reading the Bible without the correct discernment of what it means leaves the reader as a tool for Satan as evidenced by all the many varied forms of protestantism, especially Calvinism.
lol. Exactly.
“Who exalts himself in the church against Christ?
One man.”
Answer: Calvin
Observe Matthew chapter 5, which begins with an articulation of whom is blessed, and in v 45 says:
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
the evil and the unjust reap the showers of blessings that God sends just like they enjoy the sun and rain, due to the fact that they exist on the earth, like animals.
LOLOL. “Billy Madison” is one of Sandler’s only redeeming accomplishments.
“I hope you won’t mind if I think of you as my brother”
MD, you are my brother, that’s why we can disagree and there is still no doubt in my mind of your salvation. Now I’ll let you in on a little secret, I just go into the office and go on line to the local paper and if I don’t find myself in the obituaries I figure I’m at least that much ahead. All of the coupons are now in the bar code cards of the local market so there is no need to buy the Sunday Paper except in the winter to start fires in the fire place.
Just happened to now check the Religion segment and this popped up for me; excuse my very late entrance.
But my comments are that the OP has very good statements.
I’m Lutheran with Catholic background (via mom/grandma, etc).
I don’t understand why people can’t see what “veneration” means, and that it’s not the same as “worship”. This has in fact been my argument for Catholics for a long time. I “venerate” George Washington, but that’s not worship.
You wrote it but I wasn't supposed to read it?
In future please identify those parts of your posts which are not meant to be taken seriously.
Look. You're running with the big dogs here, and there is no subject more important than that which we discuss. Id give it the care it deserves.
Actually no priest has ever told me to say 10 Our Fathers and 12 Hail Mary's. I have been told to say a decade of the rosary. But that was not to obtain forgiveness.
If I offend my wife, I buy her flowers. The flowers are not meant to buy her forgiveness, but to tell her I am sorry and the covenant we have is more important than the fights we have (or used to have). If I do a "penance" after a confession, well, God already knows, better than I how sorry I am (and am not).
But it's like an exercise, a gesture, to remind myself that the sins I commit day in and day out are things to be sorry for. It also provides a kind of "closure", as they say these days. I have apologized. I have tried to understand to the best of my fallen ability what went into my sins and how sinful they are and what sadness and sorrow comes out of them. I have been forgiven, or, rather, the eternal forgiveness has, once again, touched me.
So, not in sorrow but in confidence and gratitude, I say my prayers (or whatever else is assigned) as a gesture to show that I know I blew it (again) and as an exercise to remind myself, to drive the salvific lesson home.
What was the question?
No way. Your church is the church Constantine founded.
As to worshipping Mary ... you probably don’t but you need to talk to most of the catholics in Mexico and S. America. They are seriously deluded. Must have missed the memo.
Actually read Ephesians 1, Mark.
Does it say God chose His own from before the foundation of the world, and that it was that choosing, that adoption by God, which made them acceptable to Him by Christ?
Sure enough.
And you stopped too soon. Keep reading the chapter because there's a lot of good stuff about how we come to understand God and whether or not we can be sure of His salvation of us...
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places" -- Eph. 1:17-20"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
May God enlighten the eyes of your understanding, Mark. The sooner the better.
“What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything..”
You don’t like my interpretation of what Calvinists believe?
Perhaps the interpretations given by those who distort what Catholics believe seems to us just as insane and rambling and so distorted they offend.
LOL!
Let me do my geezer act:
I wake up and say, "I couldn't hurt this much if I were dead."
We heat with wood, so the paper performs a crucial duty every winter morning.
“This is what Calvinists believe. They are telling God that they have Faith enough for Him to elect them”
Whoever made that statement does not know what Calvinists believe. How can they tell God they have faith enough for Him to elect them when they believe that they are incapable of belief unless God first gives them the faith through his grace to believe? Someone who believes because of his self generated faith and works that God must save him is arrogant.
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