Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
***What would you say to a mother who’s child is dying?
I would offer them the solace of David who knew he would see his son again.***
If one was of the elect and the other not, it’d be of a great distance. Silly statement.
***Thank you, dear Jesus, for making me your robot.***
Danger, Will Robinson.
Good luck with that. It's all gibberish anyway.
And just who, exactly, would read the 23rd Psalm in such a fashion?....
Then, I started reading the Bible. I was amazed.
You use this artless dodge to avoid the huge discrepancies, which I pointed out, between God's (Jesus') teachings in the Bible, and the teachings of the Catholic Church, of which I have been a personal, decades long witness.
So it's your position that after Confession, the priest doesn't hand out a number of "Our Fathers" and "Hail Marys" to be repeated as a part of the ritual of absolution? Please clarify.
;-)
***True Calvinists have broken away or are in the process of breaking away from the PCUSA just as Anglicans are breaking away from TEC.***
Anglicans are swimming the Tiber or the Bosphorus. The analogy isn’t quite there.
***neither does it mean that because the PCUSA which once was Calvinistic and condones abortion and homosexuality, Calvinists condone those actions.***
What about pastors like Dr. Robert Shuller?
Actually, though, living in the boonies, we subscribe to our local Pravda because of the obituaries. Okay, AND Ann Landers and the funnies.
If I could know who croaked without subscribing, I'd do it in a heartbeat. The idea that the newsies at the AP and Reuters are getting a penny of my subscription gives me a rash upon my sit-upon.
Only if you're the pope.
Benny, is that you?
"Forgive them Father. They know not what they do."
This could go on ad nauseum. The question is: Why would God, Who is beyond our ability to understand, (I Am Who Am) be limited to what mere mortals (Calvin, Spurgeon, et al) conceive as His role?
Ephesians 1, Mark. For about the 100th time.
***Maybe they could glorify God in their thoughts, words and deeds. ***
The deeds aren’t working.
***Maybe they could raise strong children who kneel to none but Christ. ***
They’d have to go to the Catholics for an example.
***Maybe they could preach the Gospel to all men and know that God converts hearts and changes lives. ***
All men. Occasionally a little truth sneaks through the curtain.
***Maybe they could be grateful for every minute of their lives because every minute of their lives is a gift from God bringing them closer to Him.***
I’ve heard this as a justification for suicide.
***Maybe they could even create a nation such as ours where Geneva’s Presbyterian form of government, taken from the Bible, would become the norm for our representative form of government.***
Washington works great doesn’t it?
***Maybe they could write books in praise of Him.***
Maybe they could create confessions and catechisms of death to the many.
***Maybe the could worship Him in truth and love.***
Maybe they could imitate their elders and worship Him in the mirror.
***Sure seems like a full day to me. Quite “human.”***
Well, hominid, anyway.
Yet what does the Priest tell us to do? Say 10 "Our Fathers" and 12 "Hail Marys".
;-/
Well I do really want to know.
God revealed as much of Himself as He chose to reveal to us in His holy word.
Insofar as "Calvin, Spurgeon, et al" remain faithful to the Scriptures and rightly divide the word, their opinions are God-glorifying and therefore worthwhile.
Post Tenebras Lux.
***While they like to occasionally make reference to Calvin, most of those in the PCUSA have never read a word of Calvin or the Westminster Confession or the Heidelburg Catechism.
Don’t expect me to defend the PCUSA. Their vote last week was a final straw for many. The membership rolls of the PCA and the OPC will grow by leaps and bounds after this.***
Yeah, sure. And in a few years, when the OPC or the EPC falls prey to the same things that the PCUSA did, then the people will move to another...
A moving con game, it’s all it is. People pretending that they have the answer; another glib preacher, another tent, another shingle hung out in a mall store. Christ left us one faith; only humans believe that they can rediscover it and rediscover it and rediscover it...
Well fathering antiChrists and then being wiped completely out by God's hand isn't exactly what I would consider to be "among the blessed", but to each his own.
You're obviously hearing dangerous voices, Mark. Pray for new ears.
“Your own Confession states the pope is AntiChrist. That makes Catholics Antichrist.
Only if you’re the pope.”
Wrong. Catholicism is AntiChrist according to your confession.
“The Presbyterian and Anglican Westminster Confession states, “There is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ; nor can the pope of Rome in any sense be the head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and that son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God” (25:6).”
Read it again: “in the church against Christ, and all that is called God” (25:6).”
“in the church against Christ...”
It’s really quite plain. You condemn Christ’s own church and that church is the communion of all its people.
But then again, dodging the trangression of the Third Commandment is not going to work. Cursing people in God’s name is anathema in Every Religion.
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