Posted on 04/29/2008 6:06:04 AM PDT by restornu
Ancient writings unearthed in the last century and a half, primarily in Egypt, are lending support to doctrines and teachings of Joseph Smith, founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Brigham Young University professor of antiquities said Sunday.
C. Wilford Griggs, who has written extensively on Egypt and is working on excavating Christian burial grounds in Egypt, said scholars are now admitting that "Joseph Smith got into the antiquities" before experts in the field began their discoveries, but they won't accept his explanation.
Smith, an uneducated farm boy, claimed he translated the Book of Mormon from ancient gold plates using instruments given him by an angel, but scholars are refusing to believe that, Griggs said during a fireside, "Joseph Smith and the Egyptian Connection," at the Pleasant Grove Manila Stake Center. Some of the ancient writings have been found in the past few years.
Many scholars are now admitting that the book accepted as scripture by church members is an ancient book, but as one scholar of antiquities told Griggs, he had no problem with the gold plates and Smith's story would be acceptable "if you'd get rid of that angel."
Anciently, the fountain of Christian knowledge was Egypt and the Mediterranean region and for about 1,000 years 90 percent of the people were in the faith "until they were converted to Islam by the sword," he said.
"We are being flooded with (ancient) writings," Griggs said, describing many as coming from the biblical New Testament period. Many of the writings, now totaling about 8,000, are on papyri, but others are on metal plates. None are exactly alike, which lends historical credence to the finds.
The apostles scattered throughout the known world and established pockets of Christianity after the time of Jesus Christ, including Egypt, he said. Some of the best early Christian records were found in Egypt, where they survived because of the climate.
The traditional concept that the Bible is complete came about 400 A.D., he said. Before then Christians knew that many other writings existed.
Many of the Christian teachings found in Egyptian digs that are shared in common with Smith's teachings have to do with the temple "and how the heavens can be open to us," Griggs said.
Among those findings is the teaching of baptism by proxy for folks who have died without learning of Christ and his gospel, which centers on the resurrection.
Anciently, baptism was known as a "sealing" to go to heaven, he said. The word "sealing" is used today in LDS temples in similar fashion.
Most of the writings which have now been found were secret anciently and held back from the people until they proved their worthiness.
Some speak of the potential of their divinity, also a common theme Smith taught, which the first LDS prophet said was given to him by revelation.
"Several of the gospels ... show that revelation was alive and well in the ancient world. Revelation was a keystone," Griggs said.
Yet centuries later, revelation and temples were denounced by religious leaders, including Augustine, as unnecessary.
>> If I want to know about the Catholic should I go to a non Catholic or the Luthean site or is I wanted to know about the Baptist should I go to a non Baptist or the Methodist site etc? <<
I would argue that you would have no trouble at all finding researchers who acknowledge the existence of the Apostles’ Creed, for instance, whether or not the researchers believed in it.
Many Catholics have tried to assert that key Christian concepts aren’t biblical in origin, but stem from interpretation of the bible. As a whole, thus approach never caught on, because the effect seems to be to drive Protestants away from such doctrines, rather than win acceptance of the notion that not every true doctrine is purely scriptural. (There are waaaaayyy to many 7th-Day Adventists around as it is!)
Nonetheless, Catholics acklnowledge the trinity as a biblical doctrine, not one merely handed down through apostolic tradition.
Exactly! Moreover, they don't hide their research from each other.
>> To put it very bluntly, the liberal intellectual boy-lovers hijaked Christian understanding of the true nature of Christ... Funny you bring up “LaVey” as he took “Mormo” from Greek mythology, Mormo was a goddess who bit bad children, said to have been a consort of the goddess Hecate. LaVey got the word the same way we got “Homouosis” from the Greeks. <<
Dude, you’ve let rage grab ahold of you. Seriously, you’re channeling it into typing, so you’re not experiencing it as violent energy, but you’re furious. Step away from the computer, settle down. You’re not making friends, or successfully expressing your arguments.
Brilliant.
(I translated it as “Buy more Ho-Hos,” thus referencing both Chocolate and promiscuity.)
Yep, just like the mormon anthropologists and Egyptologist who have been excommunicated because they studied the facts and came to the overwhelming conclusion that the history proportedly recorded in the bom was a fraud.
LOL!
You forgot to mention that most proclaim their Same Sex, Feminist, atheist incline, etc
I find it intersting that "Orthodox" Christians are always calling each other heretics at the drop of a dime. Lets be objective here really. Who understands the early Christians Doctrines better, Tertullian and Origen, who actually lived and associated with the early Saints or just another FReeper by the handle MarkBsnr? I'll go with them.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
The Greek septuagint translates "I am" as Yahweh. IOW, Jesus says he is "Jehova" God of the OT. Jehova and Eolohim are distinct personages. Like I said before "Triune" and "Trinity" are not found in the Bible.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (Matthew 28:19)
Though I am Catholic, I quoted the KJV so there can be NO QUESTION that this is the same translation that Mormnons accept.
You will notice that the word used is NAME, not names. One Name, One God in Three Persons, it's right there in the Bible, Jesus Himself spoke of the Trinity.
Ah yes, standard bile to discredit the individuals personally. Notice I no where said or referred to the gays, atheists or feminists - though numbers of those have been excommunicated too. Here are some real cases resty - what mud can you throw on them?
Simon Southerton is a molecular biologist at the CSIRO in Canberra, and he’s also a former bishop in the Mormon church.
Anthropologist Thomas W. Murphy, a lifelong Mormon. His offense: Would DNA analysis show -- as taught by the Book of Mormon -- that many American Indians are descended from ancient Israelites? His finding: negative. The result: As of 2007 final adjudication pending - overwhelming support from rank and file mormons for Murphy and against the GA.
Grant Palmer, who was employed by the church for 34 years and served as an LDS Institute director in Los Angeles, northern California and at the Utah State Prison before retiring, is scheduled for a church disciplinary council with leaders of his LDS stake on Sunday. The news was announced in a press release issued this week by Signature Books, publisher of Palmer's 2002 book, "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins."
Paul Toscano is a Salt Lake City attorney who co-authored a controversial book, Strangers in Paradox: Explorations in Mormon Theology[3] (1990), and later wrote the book The Sanctity of Dissent[4] (1994). He was excommunicated September 19, 1993
D. Michael Quinn is a Mormon historian. Among other studies, he documented LDS Church-sanctioned polygamy from 1890 until 1904, after the 1890 Manifesto when the Church officially abandoned the practice[9]. He also authored the 1987 book, Early Mormonism and the Magic World View,[10] which argues that early Mormon leaders were greatly influenced by folk magic and superstitious beliefs including stone looking, charms, and divining rods. He was excommunicated September 26, 1993
Just because the word "trinity" is not in the Bible doesn't mean that the concept is not taught. The word "monotheism" is not in the Bible, yet the Bible teaches it (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8). Therefore, your criticism is invalid.
Jehova and Eolohim are distinct personages.
Isaiah 44:6,8. Thus saith the LORD [Jehovah the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God [Elohim] ... Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God [Elohim] beside me? yea, there is no God [Elohim] I know not any. The emphatic "Thus saith Jehovah" in the above verse commands our attention. The following points are made under authoritative declaration: (1) Jehovah is the first Elohim and the last Elohim. There can be only one first and only one last. Again, this rules out the possibility of any other Gods existing throughout all of eternity past and all of eternity future. It also again shows that Jehovah and Elohim are not different Gods. (2) Jehovah is the only God (Elohim) that exists. This again rules out the possibility of other sovereigns existing
Hellenization was present in the time of the Bible as well as in the hundreds of years after. It has been debated for the alst 2 thousand years. To be more prescise about it is difficult as it is difficult to recreate over a thousand of years of debate among Christians about the issue. But i'll try to simplify. (And you can google about it too I suppose)
Paul preached against false doctrines that crept into some of the 7 churches in his NT letters. It is much like false Doctrines creeping into modern Christian churches today. Like the Anglican church now approving gay clergy or Evangelical churches (a few not most) preaching global warming from the pulpit. Both are false doctrines that are coorrupting Christianity. The same type of thing occured historically.
Some (see MarkBsnr post) who are typically Catholics believe that the Christian Father's interpretation of the Bible using the influence of the Greek Hellenic model was ordained by God to spread his word. Others felt that it was not correct, typically Reformationists and some early Christian Fathers like Justin Martyr. However Reformationist while rejecting some of the Catholic interpretation accept some parts of it. Also in the Reformation the reformationists rejected some Doctrines the Catholics have correct. Like the fact that Baptism is neccessary. The Baptist church was founded on teh idea that the Catholics got the form of Baptism wrong but that has now changed into the lay belief that Baptism by water is not essential. In defining themselves in opposition to Catholic Doctrine they swung the pendulum too far the other way. To further complicate matters both Catholics and reformationists have some Doctrines correct.
However, Restorationists feel that Originalist (Catholics)and Reformationists (Protestants) didn't get it all right either. Sometimes this takes the form of the Reformationists trying to refute Hellinism through Hellenistic philosophy itself. IOW, even though trying to refute the false Hellenic Doctrines by adopting the terms, philosophy and language of the Greeks to do so their understanding of the simple doctrine became corrupted as well. (A modern non biblical example of this was on Rush the other day when Newt Gingrich claimed to not believe in global warming but yet adopts the terminology and framework of the liberals in trying to combat it.)
The Doctrinal confusion is evidenced by "Trinity" and "Homusosis". Many lay reformationists actually beleve in Modalism which is considered a heretical form of the trinity by the Catholic church. Homousis comes from Xenophanes and Plato and others. It was adopted by Christians attempting to battle the domaninance of Greek philosophy over Christian truth but by engaging in the philosophical debate with the Jews Philosophy came to dominate in Christianity over the simple Good news of Bible. (Much like Gloabl Warming as a propoganda idea dominates when Newt and other Pubbies sell out and adopt the terminology of it albeit to combat it but in so doing they legitimize the foundation of it even as they claim to be against it.)
Which is why I find it ironic that those who like to bash Mormons for their extra Biblical scritpure many times do so using extra biblical philosophy and terminology.
Anyway, Hellenic influence on current interpretation of the Bible is a fact. Just talk to any Biblical scholars. (Not the fake atheist ones. Real Christian historical scholars) Whether you agree that it was a good or bad thing is another matter. Of course Mormons feel that a full Restoration was needed.
As a side note Fred Thompson belongs to a restorationist church that rejects the post-apostolic creeds as well. But that's all water under the bridge now anyway.
Wiki is a good place to read more too here is a short example from OT times. From wiki- After Antiochus' successful invasion of Ptolemaic Egypt was turned back by the intervention of the Roman Republic[3] he moved instead to assert strict control over Israel, sacking Jerusalem and its Temple, suppressing Jewish religious and cultural observances, and imposing Hellenistic practices.
Memebrs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believe in the Biblical form of Oneness as descried by Jesus and Stephen not the Hellenic form of Tinitrianism. This restorationist view held by Mormons matches Justin Martyr, Tertullian and Irenaeus who rejected the post Apostlolic Hellenic influence of the philosophers as well.
From wiki
Nontrinitarians assert that Catholics must have recognized the pagan roots of the trinity, because the allegation of borrowing was raised by some disputants during the time that the Nicene doctrine was being formalized and adopted by the bishops. For example, in the 4th century Catholic Bishop Marcellus of Ancyra's writings, On the Holy Church,9 :
"Now with the heresy of the Ariomaniacs, which has corrupted the Church of God...These then teach three hypostases, just as Valentinus the heresiarch first invented in the book entitled by him 'On the Three Natures'. For he was the first to invent three hypostases and three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and he is discovered to have filched this from Hermes and Plato." (Source: Logan A. Marcellus of Ancyra (Pseudo-Anthimus), 'On the Holy Church': Text, Translation and Commentary. Verses 8-9. Journal of Theological Studies, NS, Volume 51, Pt. 1, April 2000, p.95 ).
Such a late date for a key term of Nicene Christianity, and attributed to a Gnostic, they believe, lends credibility to the charge of pagan borrowing. Marcellus was rejected by the Catholic Church for teaching a form of Sabellianism.
The early apologists, including Justin Martyr, Tertullian and Irenaeus, frequently discussed the parallels and contrasts between Christianity and the pagan and syncretic religions, and answered charges of borrowing from paganism in their apologetical writings.
See post 456 Justin Martyr, Tertullian and Irenaeus disagree with you. Plus the scripture you quoted does not use the word “trinity” which is an extra Biblical term. It has different entymological and Philosophical origins than the Bible text and thus has influenced you to read the scripture you quoted to me in a different manner than Jesus himself intended as he lays out in his Intercessary prayer when he explains what “One” means.
Then provide specific and source quotes from all three where they reject the Trinity.
Plus the scripture you quoted does not use the word “trinity” which is an extra Biblical term.
I never said the word was used, I said that Christ spoke of it.
Good luck; but this ploy won't work with us!
How do WE know that what you so EASILY quote is NOT a part that is TRANSLATED INCORRECTLY?
After all; Joseph Smith NEVER finished his 'translation' of the KJV before your murderous ancestors martyred him in a Missouri jail!!
Do YOU approve of they way he was murdered??
--MormonDude(No; I DON'T know why GOD has not ALLOWED one of our Living Prophet®s to finish this noble work. Much confusion abounds!)
Hey!!
You are SUPPOSED to run off on this TANGENT that was shunted onto your path!
Play fair or get OFF of FR; GENTILE!
--MormonDude(Tired of all the games these folks play!)
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