Ancient writings support LDS doctrine and teachings (LDS Caucus)

Deseret News ^ | Monday, Apr. 28, 2008 | By Rodger L. Hardy

[restornu]

Ancient writings unearthed in the last century and a half, primarily in Egypt, are lending support to doctrines and teachings of Joseph Smith, founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Brigham Young University professor of antiquities said Sunday.

C. Wilford Griggs, who has written extensively on Egypt and is working on excavating Christian burial grounds in Egypt, said scholars are now admitting that "Joseph Smith got into the antiquities" before experts in the field began their discoveries, but they won't accept his explanation.

Smith, an uneducated farm boy, claimed he translated the Book of Mormon from ancient gold plates using instruments given him by an angel, but scholars are refusing to believe that, Griggs said during a fireside, "Joseph Smith and the Egyptian Connection," at the Pleasant Grove Manila Stake Center. Some of the ancient writings have been found in the past few years.

Many scholars are now admitting that the book accepted as scripture by church members is an ancient book, but as one scholar of antiquities told Griggs, he had no problem with the gold plates and Smith's story would be acceptable "if you'd get rid of that angel."

Anciently, the fountain of Christian knowledge was Egypt and the Mediterranean region and for about 1,000 years 90 percent of the people were in the faith "until they were converted to Islam by the sword," he said.

"We are being flooded with (ancient) writings," Griggs said, describing many as coming from the biblical New Testament period. Many of the writings, now totaling about 8,000, are on papyri, but others are on metal plates. None are exactly alike, which lends historical credence to the finds.

The apostles scattered throughout the known world and established pockets of Christianity after the time of Jesus Christ, including Egypt, he said. Some of the best early Christian records were found in Egypt, where they survived because of the climate.

The traditional concept that the Bible is complete came about 400 A.D., he said. Before then Christians knew that many other writings existed.

Many of the Christian teachings found in Egyptian digs that are shared in common with Smith's teachings have to do with the temple "and how the heavens can be open to us," Griggs said.

Among those findings is the teaching of baptism by proxy for folks who have died without learning of Christ and his gospel, which centers on the resurrection.

Anciently, baptism was known as a "sealing" to go to heaven, he said. The word "sealing" is used today in LDS temples in similar fashion.

Most of the writings which have now been found were secret anciently and held back from the people until they proved their worthiness.

Some speak of the potential of their divinity, also a common theme Smith taught, which the first LDS prophet said was given to him by revelation.

"Several of the gospels ... show that revelation was alive and well in the ancient world. Revelation was a keystone," Griggs said.

Yet centuries later, revelation and temples were denounced by religious leaders, including Augustine, as unnecessary.

[restornu]

Christ’s work resty, not any of mine.

True but we are to be a willing subjects, to me I invite the Lord into my life as I try to do the things he ask me to do and the Lord is able to work with a submissive subject.

[wagglebee]

Egyptian scholars were definitely in short supply and Joseph Smith not only had a more exotic story, there were fewer people who could possibly debunk this fabrication.

Precisely! The Rosetta Stone was only in its earliest stages of translation (and had not yet been translated into English) when Smith wrote the Book of Mormon. It is likely that someone living in rural America was even aware of the Rosetta Stone's existence, let alone its significance.

[restornu]

Can you give a scholarly source for “reformed Egyptian” that IS NOT Mormon?

If you read the article you would have known the answer!

Critics who raise the objection seem to be operating under the false impression that reformed Egyptian is used in the Book of Mormon as a proper name. In fact, the word reformed is used in the Book of Mormon in this context as an adjective, meaning "altered, modified, or changed." This is made clear by Mormon, who tells us that "the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, [were] handed down and altered by us" and that "none other people knoweth our language" (Mormon 9:32, 34). First we should emphasize that Mormon is describing Egyptian characters, or what we today would call a script or writing system. It is the form or shape of the characters or symbols that was altered by the Nephites. Nephite reformed Egyptian is thus a unique script. It derived from the Egyptian writing systems but then was modified and adapted to suit Nephite language and writing materials.

The fact that modern linguists and philologists don't know of a script known as reformed Egyptian is irrelevant, since Mormon tells us that the script was called reformed Egyptian "by us," that is, by the Nephites; they may have been the only people to use that descriptive phrase. For example, both the terms cuneiform and hieroglyphics are non-Egyptian terms for the scripts of ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt.1 The Mesopotamians did not call their writing system cuneiform, nor did the Egyptians call their writing system hieroglyphics.2 Nevertheless, we would not insist that the Mesopotamians and Egyptians never existed because they did not call their writing systems by the same names used by modern historians, philologists, and archaeologists.

Does the Book of Mormon's assertion that the Nephites took Egyptian characters and modified them to write Hebrew words make historical and linguistic sense?3 It is a common phenomenon for a basic writing system to undergo significant changes in the course of time, especially when written with new writing materials.4 Turning specifically to Egyptian, there are numerous examples of modified (or reformed) Egyptian characters being used to write non-Egyptian languages, none of which were known in Joseph Smith's day.

[MarkBsnr]

Remember that he was a convicted con man before he branched out into the religion business. His con was that he could see through a peepstone - he was a ‘glass looker’.

Why not start a religion using what you’re familiar with anyway? The LDS Church claims that it still retains at least one (Doctrines of Salvation vol 3 pg 225).

Maybe we’ll get a Book of Mormon Vol II at some point since the full revelation of God appears to be a transient thing and the LDS possesses the means to produce more prose.

[Gamecock]

True....

Not quite, according to Mormon teaching it is a cooperative effort.

[wagglebee]

If you read the article you would have known the answer!

I read the article, all it does is confirm that NOBODY outside Mormonism believes that "reformed Egyptian" even exists. What's more, the ONLY objects that ever even appeared to be in some unknown language were the Kinderhook Plates (which Smith claimed to have "translated" a portion of) and they were a HOAX.

[conservativegramma]

If you read the article you would have known the answer!

Excuse me, I DID, and saw nothing but Mormon 'scholars' and I use that term dubiously. Try some REAL SCHOLARS:

Standard language reference works contain no reference to ‘reformed’ hieroglyphics. [Standard language references such as Peter T. Daniels and William Bright, eds., The World's Writing Systems (New York: Oxford University Press, 1996) (990 pages); David Crystal, The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language (Cambridge University Press, 1997); and Roger D. Woodard, ed., The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the World's Ancient Languages (Cambridge University Press, 2004) (1162 pages) contain no reference to "reformed Egyptian." "Reformed Egyptian" is also ignored in Andrew Robinson, Lost Languages: The Enigma of the World's Undeciphered Scripts (New York: McGraw Hill, 2002)]

No non-Mormon scholars acknowledge the existence of a ‘reformed Egyptian’ language as it has been described in Mormon belief. For instance, in 1966, John A. Wilson, professor of Egyptology at the University of Chicago, wrote, "From time to time there are allegations that picture writing has been found in America… In no case has a professional Egyptologist been able to recognize these characters as Egyptian hieroglyphs. From our standpoint there is no such language as 'reformed Egyptian.”

Furthermore: In 1959, Mormon archaeologist Ross T. Christensen said that "'reformed' Egyptian" is a "form of writing which we have not yet identified in the archaeological material available to us". (Book of Mormon Institute, December 5, 1959, BYU, 1964 ed., p. 10). This statement in spite of vain attempts to prove otherwise by FAIR and FARMS.

Klaus Baer, another Egyptologist at the University of Chicago, called the characters of the "Caractors" document nothing but "doodlings." [Sunstone, (May–June 1980), p. 30. An early twentieth century scholar said that the "Carators" document looked more like "deformed English." Charles A. Shook, Cumorah Revisited or, "The Book of Mormon" and the Claims of the Mormons Reexamined from the Viewpoint of American Archaeology and Ethnology (Cincinnati: Standard Publishing Company, 1910), p. 538.

[wagglebee]

You still haven't provided a shred of evidence that ANY of the spectacular claims made in the article are true. Are we to presume that the premise of the article was fraudulent or is the professor merely "hopeful" that some "proof" would be found?

It should be noted that Egypt (especially the areas around Alexandria and Cairo) has been the subject of massive archaeological excavation for two thousand years and particularly during the 19th Century. If no "proof" of Mormonism has been found so far, it's looking pretty bleak because there isn't anywhere else to dig.

[wagglebee]

That’s why I’ve been asking. There are acknowledged experts on ancient Egypt throughout the world. From an archaeological standpoint no country on earth has been studied more thoroughly, it would seem that there would be a non-Mormon expert SOMEWHERE who could validate some of these claims.

[conservativegramma]

If no "proof" of Mormonism has been found so far, it's looking pretty bleak because there isn't anywhere else to dig.

Exactly. But its worse than 'no where else to dig in Alexandria or Cairo or anywhere else in the Middle East'. Proof of the BOM must be found HERE, in America, not Central America, South America, HERE in the good ole USA.

Pottery shards must be found documenting the thousands of Cities claimed by the BOM - NONE found.

Fragments of clay tablets inscribed with BOM cites or BOM people must be found - NONE found.

There should be found evidence of a great battle, including remnants of spear heads and arrow heads, at the Hill Cumorah in New York - NOTHING, ZIP, NADA.

I can on on and on here...........

[wagglebee]

Proof of the BOM must be found HERE, in America, not Central America, South America, HERE in the good ole USA.

As was mentioned earlier, Christ promised that the "gates of hell" would not prevail against His Church. The Mormons claimed that Christ came to America after the Resurrection.

If we are to believe the Book of Mormon, then we MUST also believe that His Church failed in America since we know that the European explorers DID NOT find practitioners of Mormonism. Why did His Church fail in America? And keep in mind that regardless of ANYONE'S answer to this question, one of two people MUST BE A LIAR -- was Jesus Christ a liar or was Joseph Smith a liar?

[MarkBsnr]

***Precisely! The Rosetta Stone was only in its earliest stages of translation (and had not yet been translated into English) when Smith wrote the Book of Mormon. It is likely that someone living in rural America was even aware of the Rosetta Stone’s existence, let alone its significance.***

It is likely that some folks would have signed on. Look at the moderately well educated and one would suppose, reasonably intelligent individuals that have signed on for Scientology, for instance. But they almost certainly would have been far fewer given a robust debunking with good public knowledge.

[MHGinTN]

For several months some of the mormonism apologists kept asserting that Smith ‘translated’ the plates using the Urim&Thummim. When it was pointed out to them that the scribe Smith used stated clearly that Smith ‘translated’ from his peepstone placed in his hat, they reluctantly changed to not addressing the methodology used by their adulterous false prophet. I’ve grown tired of disclosing the falsities and duplicitous posts from them. I usually just post when something they assert is contrary to the Grace of God in Christ.

[Elsie]

Ancient writings support LDS doctrine and teachings

So does Satan

[restornu]

Not quite, according to Mormon teaching it is a cooperative effort.

explain?

[Elsie]

Smith, an uneducated farm boy, claimed he translated the Book of Mormon from ancient gold plates using instruments given him by an angel, but scholars are refusing to believe that...

 

Dang!

 

I wonder WHY!?

 

 

 

 

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2 Corinthians 11:12-15
 12.  And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.
 13.  For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
 14.  And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
 15.  It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Like THESE guys??

 

 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19

 

 

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

 

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Galatians 1:6-9
 6.  I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
 7.  which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
 8.  But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
 9.  As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

 

 

 

ANYBODY???

 

Like this fine looking fellow???

 

 

 

 

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Ephesians 2:1-2

   As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,  in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

[Elsie]

Smith, an uneducated farm boy, claimed he translated the Book of Mormon from ancient gold plates using instruments given him by an angel, but scholars are refusing to believe that...

Joseph ALSO claimed he 'learned' that PRESBYTERIANISM was untrue.

Does anyone have some data that illustrates just WHAT was 'untrue' about it??

[Elsie]

This is LDS caucus a closed session it is not open for debate it LDS News.

It sure doesn't LOOK like it!

In the Religion forum, on a thread titled Ancient writings support LDS doctrine and teachings, restornu wrote:

[Elsie]

The header of the thread should make it obvious ...

Uh.... it didn't.

[Elsie]

What I have done is asked for more background on the archaeological and philological claims made in the article.

Only a rank unBELIEVER would ask for EVIDENCE.

Pray about it to find your answers!!

--MormonDude(I got yer back; Restornu!)