Posted on 04/04/2008 11:01:22 AM PDT by Gamecock
Last week I received the following e-mail, and I felt it would be best to share my response here on the blog.
Dear Mr. White, For someone considering converting to Catholicism, what questions would you put to them in order to discern whether or not they have examined their situation sufficiently? Say, a Top 10 list. Thanks.
When I posted this question in our chat channel a number of folks commented that it was in fact a great question, and we started to throw out some possible answers. Here is my "Top Ten List" in response to this fine inquiry.
10) Have you listened to both sides? That is, have you done more than read Rome Sweet Home and listen to a few emotion-tugging conversion stories? Have you actually taken the time to find sound, serious responses to Rome's claims, those offered by writers ever since the Reformation, such as Goode, Whitaker, Salmon, and modern writers? I specifically exclude from this list anything by Jack Chick and Dave Hunt.
9) Have you read an objective history of the early church? I refer to one that would explain the great diversity of viewpoints to be found in the writings of the first centuries, and that accurately explains the controversies, struggles, successes and failures of those early believers?
8) Have you looked carefully at the claims of Rome in a historical light, specifically, have you examined her claims regarding the "unanimous consent" of the Fathers, and all the evidence that exists that stands contrary not only to the universal claims of the Papacy but especially to the concept of Papal Infallibility? How do you explain, consistently, the history of the early church in light of modern claims made by Rome? How do you explain such things as the Pornocracy and the Babylonian Captivity of the Church without assuming the truthfulness of the very system you are embracing?
7) Have you applied the same standards to the testing of Rome's ultimate claims of authority that Roman Catholic apologists use to attack sola scriptura? How do you explain the fact that Rome's answers to her own objections are circular? For example, if she claims you need the Church to establish an infallible canon, how does that actually answer the question, since you now have to ask how Rome comes to have this infallible knowledge. Or if it is argued that sola scriptura produces anarchy, why doesn't Rome's magisterium produce unanimity and harmony? And if someone claims there are 33,000 denominations due to sola scriptura, since that outrageous number has been debunked repeatedly (see Eric Svendsen's Upon This Slippery Rock for full documentation), have you asked them why they are so dishonest and sloppy with their research?
6) Have you read the Papal Syllabus of Errors and Indulgentiarum Doctrina? Can anyone read the description of grace found in the latter document and pretend for even a moment that is the doctrine of grace Paul taught to the Romans?
5) Have you seriously considered the ramifications of Rome's doctrine of sin, forgiveness, eternal and temporal punishments, purgatory, the treasury of merit, transubstantiation, sacramental priesthood, and indulgences? Have you seriously worked through compelling and relevant biblical texts like Ephesians 2, Romans 3-5, Galatians 1-2, Hebrews 7-10 and all of John 6, in light of Roman teaching?
4) Have you pondered what it means to embrace a system that teaches you approach the sacrifice of Christ thousands of times in your life and yet you can die impure, and, in fact, even die an enemy of God, though you came to the cross over and over again? And have you pondered what it means that though the historical teachings of Rome on these issues are easily identifiable, the vast majority of Roman Catholics today, including priests, bishops, and scholars, don't believe these things anymore?
3) Have you considered what it means to proclaim a human being the Holy Father (that's a divine name, used by Jesus only of His Father) and the Vicar of Christ (that's the Holy Spirit)? Do you really find anything in Scripture whatsoever that would lead you to believe it was Christ's will that a bishop in a city hundreds of miles away in Rome would not only be the head of His church but would be treated as a king upon earth, bowed down to and treated the way the Roman Pontiff is treated?
2) Have you considered how completely unbiblical and a-historical is the entire complex of doctrines and dogmas related to Mary? Do you seriously believe the Apostles taught that Mary was immaculately conceived, and that she was a perpetual virgin (so that she traveled about Palestine with a group of young men who were not her sons, but were Jesus' cousins, or half-brothers (children of a previous marriage of Joseph), or the like? Do you really believe that dogmas defined nearly 2,000 years after the birth of Christ represent the actual teachings of the Apostles? Are you aware that such doctrines as perpetual virginity and bodily assumption have their origin in gnosticism, not Christianity, and have no foundation in apostolic doctrine or practice? How do you explain how it is you must believe these things de fide, by faith, when generations of Christians lived and died without ever even having heard of such things?
And the number 1 question I would ask of such a person is: if you claim to have once embraced the gospel of grace, whereby you confessed that your sole standing before a thrice-holy God was the seamless garment of the imputed righteousness of Christ, so that you claimed no merit of your own, no mixture of other merit with the perfect righteousness of Christ, but that you stood full and complete in Him and in Him alone, at true peace with God because there is no place in the universe safer from the wrath of God than in Christ, upon what possible grounds could you come to embrace a system that at its very heart denies you the peace that is found in a perfect Savior who accomplishes the Father's will and a Spirit who cannot fail but to bring that work to fruition in the life of God's elect? Do you really believe that the endless cycle of sacramental forgiveness to which you will now commit yourself can provide you the peace that the perfect righteousness of Christ can not?
Great reply - and welcome to FR!
Thank you so much for sharing your testimony and insights, dear brother in Christ!
Amen.
thanks for your kind words on both threads and pariticularly for joining in prayer for JimRob.
Lord, Please give Jim deep healing sleep. And, if fitting, a vivid dream of a deepened relationship with you that great healing and wholeness might flow out of. Amen.
Virtually all
RELIGIOUS organizations and structures through the centuries have sooner than later concluded that
THEY AND THEY ALONE
HAD A MONOPOLY ON TRUTH, POWER, RIGHTEOUSNESS ETC.
Christ didn’t think much of such attitudes when He was discoursing with the magicsterical 2000 years ago.
He doesn’t seem to think much of such now, either.
Rogue individuals within the Church often make various claims--that certainly doesn't make them doctrines of the Church.
LOLOL. Since you said you used to be an Episcopalian, it's possible you haven't spent enough time in the church of Rome and thus you didn't get the "priests are another Christ" memo.
But you have your work cut out for you if you want to paint Baker as a "rogue" because in the following FR thread, nearly every RC on the forum was high-fiving him and his "amazing gift of the priesthood."
In addition, please note the second comment in the FR thread posted by Markomalley (is Mark a "rogue," too?)
MARK: A tremendous resource for understanding the sacramental nature of the priestood is Pope Pius XI's encyclical letter, Ad Catholici Sacerdotii...
12. The Apostle of the Gentiles thus perfectly sums up what may be said of the greatness, the dignity and the duty of the Christian priesthood: Sic nos existimet homo Ut ministros Christi et dispensatores mysteriorum Dei--"Let a man so account of us as of the ministers of Christ and the dispensers of the mysteries of God." The priest is the minister of Christ, an instrument, that is to say, in the hands of the Divine Redeemer. He continues the work of the redemption in all its world-embracing universality and divine efficacy, that work that wrought so marvelous a transformation in the world. Thus the priest, as is said with good reason, is indeed "another Christ"; for, in some way, he is himself a continuation of Christ. "As the Father hath sent Me, I also send you," is spoken to the priest, and hence the priest, like Christ, continues to give "glory to God in the highest and on earth peace to men of good will." ...
Perhaps Pope Pius XI is also a "rogue."
On that, you won't get an argument from me.
What a coincidence, my family has a history of being persecuted by the papists for 500 years and I won't go for idol worship!
LOL. A new day dawns. 8~)
I just wanted to say that I Do understand that there are many denominations that believe they hold the ultimate stance in truth. My denomination is definitely one of them~ However, I would have less respect for any denomination that did NOT state as much. I respect anyone that will stand up and fight for their faith in God. That will stand up and stand firm for their Christian church! Again, ultimately we ARE all part of this same wonderful household, even if we argue (as all families have done since the beginning of time.)
I'm going to attempt to slip as quietly out of this thread as I slipped in but hopefully leave with this.....
I won't go to my brother and tell him, “Daddy loves me more because I draw pretty pictures!” Nor would my brother tell me, “Dad loves me more because I am more organized!”
I am proud to see the amazing determination and conviction displayed by each poster here! Would that such astounding talent could be so openly shared amongst those that have no knowledge of God~ Such conviction could surely win many hearts to our Lord!
First off, welcome to FR!
***I just wanted to say that I Do understand that there are many denominations that believe they hold the ultimate stance in truth.***
Here is the subtle distinction. While we Proddies each think that their own denomination has the fullest understanding of Scripture, we also agree that the other is saved by Grace through Faith in Christ. We also admit that there may well be an area where our own corner might be wrong.
I am pinging 6 Proddies from several different confessions to confirm that.
“we also agree that the other is saved by Grace through Faith in Christ. “
*smiles* Fantastic! We Catholics believe the same thing!
Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX
Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863
“those who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment”
Romans teaches all have fallen short, there are none righteous, no, not one.
We rely on the one who did the perfect work, and then on the cross took the sins of who believe, and transferred that righteousness onto us.
His posts make up in sneering mockery what they lack in factual accuracy. There is in his posts regarding Catholicism an odd inverse relationship between the inaccuracy of an allegation and his blustery certainty in alleging it.
Hi Salvation,
Is there a particular reason that I received a special ping on this?
Well, there is that. A cruise would be good, too.
But you have to admit that a kitten is a good value, mental-health-wise. They don't even eat much :-).
It is amazing how Roman Catholics always think that no one really understands their religion.
And than go totally mute when their own writings refute them.
Here is the subtle distinction. While we Proddies each think that their own denomination has the fullest understanding of Scripture, we also agree that the other is saved by Grace through Faith in Christ. We also admit that there may well be an area where our own corner might be wrong.
I am pinging 6 Proddies from several different confessions to confirm that.
= =
INDEED! INDEED!
THANKS.
Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863
"those who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men..."
Most Protestants do not believe "natural law" saves anyone. Christ on the cross saves His flock.
The law serves to condemn us by showing how we cannot obey perfectly. Only Christ's obedience saves the fallen sinner by grace.
"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." -- Romans 5:19
Knowing this, however, does not restrict God. God works in mysterious ways, and He can give a new heart to anyone He wants whenever He wants.
But natural law is like natural man who "receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
YEAH, THE MUTE problem seems to crop up rather chronically.
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LORD, JESUS, WE LIFT UP JIMROB TODAY. We ask that you strengthen him in his inner man—particularly in His reliance on and focus on You as the supreme ultimate highest priority in his life. Please give him a vision of what you would have for him today. May he have your hope and resilience. May all the cells and fibers of his body come into alignment with your perfect wholeness for him. May any roadblocks to his complete healing be removed from every area within and around him. May he SEEK YOU FIRST, FOREMOST AND ALWAYS. May your Joy be his strength—in Jesus’ Name.
And, Please, Lord, touch TENTHAMENDMENTCHAMPION in her battle with normally aggressive bone marrow cancer. Cause all the treatments to do above and beyond their normal benefit. Draw her deeper into yourself. Give her vivid understanding and a vision of how to walk out any of the historic junk that might otherwise hinder her healing. Give her and hubby clear guidance and joy for today. In Jesus’ Name
And may all who read this post and find it fitting agree with these prayers in unified faith.
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There seems to be two responses that have a habitual compulsiveness about them . . .
1. wailing, screaming, writing on the floor followed by an abuse button sitting marathonh
or
2. mute silence, ignoring points that are toooooo difficult to respond to without concession or denial of well known or obvious reality.
Sad to see so many in such a large group so tied to such dysfunctional responses and such dysfunctional constructions on reality.
I have yet to have a response to my explanation about why RC’s attending mass daily/weekly and having The Gospel pass into their ears come away with no understanding of the Gospel.
1. They seem to absolutely not understand the simple explanation.
2. They redundantly scream about how such claims are “lies,” when Prottys hereon alone could collectively cite dozens if not 100’s of examples of precisely that happening.
Alas, it is not an exclusively RC problem as I’ve noted obliquely many times. CHURCHIANITY has long ago replaced Christianity in far too many hearts, minds, lives. Going through the motions and pretending it’s sufficient has been an SOP for a very long time.
However, the RC version is the worst I know of with lots of institution wide subtle to not so subtle suggestions that FOLLOWING THE SCRIPT is sufficient.
When actually, it’s no better than the ‘buying God’s favor’ hideocies of many TV preacher clubs.
It’s interesting . . . Have talked with many, many different Protty clusters from many many different denominations. They ALL admit such a problem in congregation after congregation.
Every last one of them. I cant recall a single case of denial of the problem in any of my Protty discussions regardless of the denomination.
Yet, with the RC’s it’s virtually a unified wall of denial.
DarthVader would likely insist, quite accurately, imho, that it’s a RELIGIOUS SPIRIT problem—a demonic influence problem.
Is that “all” it is? Many, if not all, Protty groups have some level of a RELIGIOUS SPIRIT problem, too.
What’s different about the RC’s that the denial is so reflexive, instant, fierce, endemic? Is it the institutionalized nature and age of the problem that makes it so inherent, endemic, reflexive?
Why this sheeple eagerness to be hypnotized by the ritual and chaff hoopla into thinking that the window-dressing is the objective, focus, Salvation???
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song/hymn links:
SINGING HYMNS WITH FERNANDO ORTEGA POWER N THE BLOOD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feXUglwt59w
COME YE SINNERS FERNANDO ORTEGA AMY GRANT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmo6CAvn_dE
GRACE LIKE RAIN TODD AGNEW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcGJb-mPMmg
HOW MAJESTIC IS YOUR NAME AMY GRANT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcGJb-mPMmg
I HAVE DECIDED AMY GRANT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UbmeIQugKk
SAVE BY LOVE AMY GRANT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS4CiGmaDds
EMMANUEL GOD WITH US AMY GRANT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvHHlcMkrGk
BIBLE THY WORD AMY GRANT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNkwbEwA-DY
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