Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
As far as Job goes: One way to look at the story, a way which presumes that God chastises the ones He loves - a presumption for which there is good warrant, in life as well as in Scripture, is that Job, while not doing anything, so to speak, actionable, is still deficient in the spiritual gift of resignation (as am I) and in the understanding of the mysterious relationship between God and Justice (as am I).
So while He is blameless up until the loss of all that is dear to him, under fire, He accuses God of injustice and wishes that there were a go'el -- a champion who would plead his cause against God before some unimaginable higher tribunal.So God messes him over and brings him to his glorious repentance.
And this is not a huge problem for me, because Our Lady, while we also hold her "blameless", still seems to have needed to do a lot of pondering in her heart to understand what it meant that Her Son w as the Messiah and the Son of God.
We postulate the a full-of-grace = completely gracious person could do so without sinning, while Job, I think did mess up under fire.But it seems to me the point of the "set-up", the "backstory" is clear: bad stuff happens to people who do all the right things, here's a guy who did all the right things, and He lost all that was dear to him. And here's what happened afterwards. And what happens is that Job experiences what we Papists hold to be the "end" of life: the vision of God. And when he is granted that wonderful grace, his complaint vanishes. As, may it please God, I hope all my little petty natterings will one day.
Still, for the, in comparison with the majesty of the book of Job, small concern of what Paul meant when he said all have sinned, I would say the Book of Job would count on the side of the argument that claims that we don't need to read "all" in the Boolean sense.
...since we know that the Bible teaches that all have sinned
we're saying he dind't mean "all" as in, without exception (despite the "No, not one") We adduce IHs as the one exception to which you will agree, and then we adduce our lady as the other exception, to which we don't expect you to agree.
This is not an argument, this is a "state of the question" comment. Or, as I say, book-keeping.
I have asked you several times, but as yet you have not told me what constitutes "proof" to YOU. Scripture is plenty good as proof for Reformers, and for many other non-Apostolics. I have already given you everything I can think of as "proof", including quotes from Josh McDowell's good book "More Than a Carpenter". That book authenticates the scriptures from even the non-believer's point of view. I don't know how I can even try to give you what you really WANT if you won't tell me what it is. :)
Everyone's faith is reasoned, FK, even the blind faith. Faith is actually rationalized more than reasoned. In other words, we come up with plausible explanations for something we don't understand.
Rationalization is the enemy of reason. I think I understand my faith just fine, just as I was intended to at this point in my life. If God did not want us to understand anything meaningful, then Christianity is just a "pick-'em" religion. Many Apostolics have related to me how wonderful the experience of the sacrament of the Eucharist is because of the communion with God. Of course, that is impossible if all we really have to work with are rationalizations or plausible explanations.
If faith were reasoned it would be logical.
Faith IS logical. It is not born of logic, but logic fully supports it, with Godly presuppositions, which used to be common even among unbelievers.
Incarnation and angels are not logical. Gravity is not logical. The world, as it is, the universe, is not logical to human mindset.
Of course all of these things are logical. What would say would be logical IN PLACE of all of these things? Utter nothingness?
What you call a bible is a sanitized man-made version of a bunch of scraps put together, presumed to be written by the authors it claims, and believed to be "inspired."
But I take it that this "bunch of scraps" is highly revered and followed as Tradition in the Orthodox Church? Are the writings of the Fathers better than a "bunch of scraps"? :)
Thanks. As you might imagine, not every Latin would agree with this. :) But nevertheless, I wanted to get a stronger handle on what the respective positions were. This helps, so thanks again.
God gave Abram faith, just as He gives all believers faith. I'm not sure we have the details of how it happened, but we do have this to show THAT it happened:
Gen 12:1, 4-5 : 1 The Lord had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you. ...... 4 So Abram left, as the Lord had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he set out from Haran. 5 He took his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, all the possessions they had accumulated and the people they had acquired in Haran, and they set out for the land of Canaan, and they arrived there.
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FK: Faith cannot be in nothingness. It has to be in the Gospel, the words of God.
So, then Abraham and the Canaanite woman believed in "nothingness?" Or are you using the word "Gospel" in a personalized, let's be nice and use MadDawg's expresison, "imprecise" way as well?
What? Kosta, I said "the Gospel, the words of God". Abraham got his faith from the words of God, even if it wasn't in a form we would recognize as "the Gospel" today. He did not believe in nothing so that he would obey God's command. He believed in something he could express in words, such as "I know that God is real and exists and is the true God".
FK: No, I just mean in COMPARISON to what was ordained. Christ's death on the cross was NEVER an issue of "will it happen/won't it happen".
Kosta: FK, no one said anything about "will/will not." Your statement says "Whatever God has ordained is as good as already done. The rest is mechanics." That makes Crucifixion simply "mechanics."
OK, by "mechanics" I mean that what God ordains will happen for certain. How do you see it? Something very different? You're zooming in on the word "mechanics" but there's no argument or point behind it that I can see. When Jesus spoke the prophecy of His own death did He really mean "if it happens"?
If God did not create evil in your theology who did?
I don't think I look at evil as a "thing" to be created. It is the absence of God. However, I suppose that the first example of evil that we can point to is whatever satan did to get himself and his posse kicked out of Heaven. As God created satan, He obviously allowed this to happen, although He could have prevented it. Reformers do not pin blame on God for this, although others do so and then accuse us of agreeing with them.
Was it not the Reformed God's will that evil exist?
YES! That's right. It was God's will that evil "exist". For such things, the Reformed God is infinitely more powerful than the Apostolic God, since the Reformed God is sovereign, in control, and is not subject to chance. The Apostolic God was just unlucky that evil came into being. But, that's the way it goes..... The Reformed God is not subject to luck.
As I said in another post, this is an example of the Apostolic definition of freedom, that is, freedom APART from God. Real freedom for good is found WITHIN God. ....... BTW, where is the rule that says God can't preordain whom He wants to be with Him in Heaven? Would that be unfair of God if He did that?
Outstanding post, TC! :) Right now I'm studying Francis Schaeffer and this is straight from his playbook. Or, Schaeffer is straight from Kuyper's playbook. :) Kuyper clearly understood who the infinite-personal God is, and that He is THERE, and He is not silent. :)
It absolutely is an antithesis, but with symbolism there really aren't any absolutes. Bye-bye antithesis. Only under the system of symbolism (nothingness) can man claim to reign supreme.
I am trying to show you that there is no proof that will satisfy our reason. Yet, we believe...believe it or not I believe in spite of everything I say. It's like trying to sand down titanium with a cotton ball! It is a humbling experience to realize that no amount of reasoning will touch the faith, and it is equally humbling to realize that this did not come from anything I read, learned or heard or done. We have no clue why we believe. We can come up with reasons and even rationalizations as to why, but the bottom line is we don't know why some believe and others don't.
It is not born our of reason and therefore it is not rational, FK. For reason neither builds nor destroys faith. And if we can't prove why we believe we can't prove anything about it. Faith is proof unto itself. Orthodox Catechism states it is "where words fall silent, where reason fades, where all human knowledge and comprehension cease, where God is." It is complete surrender.
Rationalization is the enemy of reason
Well, in absence of real knowledge we tend to rationalize to, as I said, "come up with plausible explanations for something we don't understand." Thus, when ancients saw thunder they rationalized it to be God's wrath. When they felt earth shake, they figured God was "shaking" the earth. When they saw a man who couldn't walk or had boils they rationalized he was stricken with a "plague" because he must have done something bad and God punished him. When some tribes heard a volcano rumble, guess what...you get my point.
The problem with such rationalizations is that (a) they provide a plausible explanation that satisfies our human mindset (but are almost always dead wrong) and (b) they stop anyone from seeking real causes. Thus we have both something misleading and stifling knowledge. It creates myths and legends, and it actually perpetuates ignorance.
The problem with faith is that we can't just accept it. We must make it "reasonable" according to our standards of logic. It has to "make sense" to us first and foremost. Otherwise, as the saying goes, we "can't believe God would do such a thing!"
Of course all of these things [Incarnation, angels, etc] are logical. What would say would be logical IN PLACE of all of these things? Utter nothingness?
Well, let's see, nothing we have actually seen or understood. What would you call that? Unicorns on Jupiter? Nothingness? Hardly. Why must everything be logical to us? Contrary to what you say, gravity is not logical. We have no clue why gravity exists! How can that be logical? Both matter and electromagnetic radiation is subject to gravity; bodies attract each other physically on all levels. We are sitting on earth because the earth pulls on us and our bodies pull on the earth. It makes no sense, FK. There is no "logical" explanation for the universal existence of gravity. Of course, gravity keeps all things together, but that doesn't tell us why. Screw, nails and tenons keep furniture joints together too. Why use one over the other is a different story. You have to ask the maker. You can't deduce it logically.
But I take it that this "bunch of scraps" is highly revered and followed as Tradition in the Orthodox Church? Are the writings of the Fathers better than a "bunch of scraps"
Both are expressions of a phenomenon we call faith. The authors of the "scraps" express their faith, and so do the Fathers of the Church in their writings. They are all testament to man's faith. They don't contradict each other. They express and recognize the same faith.
ancients saw thunder = ancients heard thunder
I just heard an excellent discussion on Romans 1. Please consider this text:
The problem is not that man does not believe in God. The problem is that man does not wish to acknowledge God; he just doesn't want to give God any glory. It is inherit in our rebellious nature. To make matters worst, man deliberately create things to take the place of God.
Faith isn't a leap into the unknown. Rather faith is the acknowledgement of what is known.
I disagree, and that's why I am not a big fan of St. Paul. There are people who believe in gods and worship them with love (take Thailand for example) that rivals ours (which is mostly lip service anyway).
This also then leads to false universalism. If all people know one (and the same) God, then all religions are "right" even though they are expressed differently.
Man knows what is right and wrong. That is why we have laws
Man knows two things when it comes to right and wrong: (a) feels good [right] and (b) feels bad [wrong]. That's why their god is "wrong" and ours is "right." That's why people praise God when things go good and shake their fists at him when things go bad.
If everything is for the glory of God, then our fortune and misfortune demand equal praise and gratitude, whether it be the birth of our son or daugther or a premature death of a loved one, or losing all your fortune through Enron.
This outlook makes human suffering and crulety is only part of God's "plan" and we are not to feel one way or another about it. That's not the God we recognize in Christ.
In fact, if we are to follow Reformed theology we would simply say about the unfortunate ones "too bad, they are where they are and what they are because God wanted them to be where they are and what they are."
No, HD, Man doesn't know God. Man only knows man's version of God.
Man instituded laws to gvie himself "rights." Not because man knows God.
That is most beautifully put, Mad Dawg. But it doesn't explain or justify the presumption that God tortures those he loves, those who fear him the most, those who avoid all wickedness, the upright. There is an underlying dose of sado-masochism in such theology, common to both Latin and Protestant communities. Compare it to the East, where St. Symeon the New Theologian says
"I neither fasted nor kept vigils, nor slept on bare floors but — to borrow the Psalmist's words — 'I humbled myself' and, in short, 'the Lord saved me.'" [On Faith, Philokalia, Vol 4)
The west believes God makes people suffer. The East believes God is mercy, God is the Comforter, not the torturer! The East holds that those who suffer do so voluntarily for the glory of God and thank God for the opportunity to suffer for faith. Now, speaking of what we are deficient in, I am certainly decifient in that.
Job is, first of all, Old Testament. To a Catholic or Orthodox that is a foreshadowing of truth like through the glass, dimly...Can we really discern God in the OT save through the likeness of Christ by asking ourselves where is Christ in all this? I don't see Christ making bets with Ha-Satan. Do you?
Let's look at Job 2:3 (my emphasis)
3. The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause." (NAB)
God repeats what Job 1:1 says, that Job is blameless and upright (in God's eyes, and God knows everything!), while admitting that Satan can incite God to destroy without case (I guess we could say "for the H&ll of it" no pun intended!).
Let's also try to understand Job in terms of what faith is. Our faith is a way of life. At least Orthodoxy is. As Kolo's One Who Has to be Obeyed says "they walk orthodox in Greece." That's why there are truly Orthodox countries. Their whole way of life, habits, vocabulary, culture in general reflects their faith.
In that mind frame, can you see someone subjecting one's model child to such a test as Job was subjected so God can boast about himself being supreme and to prove Satan wrong? Would a loving father ever do that to one of his favorite children?
Job would also imply that unless we are tested to the extreme as he was we cannot be sanctified. And in order to be tested one has to be upright and shun all evil. That would drastically reduce the number of candidates to enter the heaven to single digits imo
***BTW, where is the rule that says God can’t preordain whom He wants to be with Him in Heaven? Would that be unfair of God if He did that?***
I really haven’t had the time lately to keep up with this most excellent discussion, but I thought I’d pop in here.
God is not fair; I don’t think that He could even be said to be just. He is merciful. When you are merciful, you are absolutely unfair and unjust. Jesus is mercy incarnate; He is merciful and instructs us to be merciful as well.
Many Protestants treasure Heb 10:31 - It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
If God is merciful, then there does not have to be fear. Kosta frequently describes the OT God as a stern, angry and vindictive oppressor. But many of the Reformers have missed Heb 10:26, which describes the conditions in which we should fear God - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
More proof that the Calvinistic model of predestination is wrong.
Job is an interesting subject; one which has caused more than its share of trouble throughout the past 2 millenia, though to be honest, I think the problems have been more among the Westerners than among the Easterners. If one takes the OT completely literally, it can lead to problems. My experience is that Orthodoxy, as a general matter, looks at the OT as the story of the preparation of God’s people for the coming of Christ and to establish our place as human in Creation. In other words, its not about whether bats are birds. +Athanasius the Great gives us an example of what I am talking about in his “Life of Antony” (meaning +Anthony the Great) where speaking about Job at section 29 he says,
“’But if any one having in mind the history of Job should say, Why then hath the devil gone forth and accomplished all things against him; and stripped him of all his possessions, and slew his children, and smote him with evil ulcers? let such a one, on the other hand, recognise that the devil was not the strong man, but God who delivered Job to him to be tried. Certainly he had no power to do anything, but he asked, and having received it, he hath wrought what he did. So also from this the enemy is the more to be condemned, for although willing he could not prevail against one just man. For if he could have, he would not have asked permission. But having asked not once but also a second time, he shows his weakness and want of power. And it is no wonder if he could do nothing against Job, when destruction would not have come even on his cattle had not God allowed it. And he has not the power over swine, for as it is written in the Gospel, they besought the Lord, saying, “Let us enter the swine .” But if they had power not even against swine, much less have they any over men formed in the image of God.
30. ‘So then we ought to fear God only, and despise the demons, and be in no fear of them. But the more they do these things the more let us intensify our discipline against them, for a good life and faith in God is a great weapon. At any rate they fear the fasting, the sleeplessness, the prayers, the meekness, the quietness, the contempt of money and vainglory, the humility, the love of the poor, the alms, the freedom from anger of the ascetics, and, chief of all, their piety towards Christ. Wherefore they do all things that they may not have any that trample on them, knowing the grace given to the faithful against them by the Saviour, when He says, “Behold I have given to you power to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and upon all the power of the enemy .”’
See what I mean? Remember guys, Christianity arose in the East and spread to the West and sometimes thinking about the Faith in a Western way can lead one into dangerous, blind alleys. Orthodox Christians know Who Christ is and Who the Father and the Spirit are. None are the celestial game player of the OT but the stories teach us all sorts of valuable lessons about Who Christ is, what our position in Creation is, indeed what Creation itself is in its fallen state and what our created purpose is.
Yes indeed! Good point. :)
The EOC would have to show me that all mankind knows one God. I take his statement to be an opinion, HD. The purpose of the messiah was to be make the God of Abraham known to the whole world. That doesn't jive very well with the idea that all mankind already knows the same God.
If you are referring to Heb 8, where God says he will put the knowledge of him in everyone's heart, he was speaking of the Jews and not of all mankind, as is obvious from the context of the chapter.
And finally if all mankind knew the same one God then there would be no need to "teach and baptize."
According to Paul the reason is they know God but they don't wish to acknowledge Him as God.
Who has seen God? In that respect, what is the difference between one and many gods? They all require blind faith.
They'll get a block of wood, carve it into some likeness, cover it with gold and jewels, and then bow down to it. Pretty stupid but that is the way we are.
Well, we could also say, they write a book and say "it's the word of God," and everyone treats it as such. Pretty stupid but that's how we are.
Isn't that the lesson of Job? Naked came we into this world. Naked shall we leave. Bless be the name of the Lord.
My experience has been that most people talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Preaching and teaching one can make oneself as saintly as it gets. Trouble is, we don't live a saintly life. What we do doesn't match what me make ourselves to be in words. The only lesson from Job that I see worthy of mention is that the OT God made a deal with Satan to terrorize unnecessarily the only man on earth who was righteous, shunned all evil and feared God, and was blameless in God's eyes. Pretty sad.
I don't see too many Christians thanking the Lord when their loved ones die. They should be ecstatic knowing their loved ones are in heaven. And when someone is diagnosed with a terminal illness, who thanks God? And when someone is fired from the job and cannot feed his family, do they thank God? No, HD. They don't. They are not happy with their lot. They ask God to pull them out. They feel it is not "right" or "just" for good Christians to be stricken with illness or be fired from the job because it feels bad. No one is celebrating the bad things; but when things are going well, oh then we are blessed and thank God repeatedly because it feels good.
So, no matter how you turn it around, it is always man's measure of what is right and what is wrong and it defaults to that same "judgment" even an infant, even a flat worm, knows: feels good-feels bad.
Sorry, life isn't full of equality. God never told the Egyptians to put lamb's blood on the door post the night the angel of death passed through.
Setting aside the ridiculous notion that God needed a "maker" to know which household was Jewish, the Old Testament certainly doesn't even attempt to be fair and balanced. That's why slavery was "justified" using the Bible for so many centuries in the west: life isn't fair. By that logic we should still have slavery, 'cause life isn't fair! Too bad, so sad.
Nonsense. Man intuitively knows that murder is wrong. He knows it's wrong to steal or to lie.
You will have to show me where you get the notion that man intuitively knows that murder is "wrong," or that stealing and lying is also wrong. A natural man, in order to get what he wants, will kill, lie and steal and not feel any remorse of sense of guilt. He justifies his actions with his needs and priorities.
Thank you Kolo for sharing the patristic writing of +Athanasius the Great on the Book of Job. However, it still doesn;t explain why was Job, blameless in God’s eyes like no other man on earth, subjected to such cruelty.
What's God got to do with our sins? It is not God who makes us sin, Mark; we are the ones who condmen ourselves by tossing away God's helping hands. We should fear ourselves. That fear of God is alien to the Orthodox.
Sure, the priest calls us to approach the chalice "In fear and faith..." but that fear is awe. Many an Orthodox prayer calles God Comforter. How can one be in fear of the one who comforts us?
For if God is to be feared and a moody tyrant, then salvation is being saved from God rtaher than by God, because we all sin (willfully, and after having received the knowledge) until the end of our days.
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