I have asked you several times, but as yet you have not told me what constitutes "proof" to YOU. Scripture is plenty good as proof for Reformers, and for many other non-Apostolics. I have already given you everything I can think of as "proof", including quotes from Josh McDowell's good book "More Than a Carpenter". That book authenticates the scriptures from even the non-believer's point of view. I don't know how I can even try to give you what you really WANT if you won't tell me what it is. :)
Everyone's faith is reasoned, FK, even the blind faith. Faith is actually rationalized more than reasoned. In other words, we come up with plausible explanations for something we don't understand.
Rationalization is the enemy of reason. I think I understand my faith just fine, just as I was intended to at this point in my life. If God did not want us to understand anything meaningful, then Christianity is just a "pick-'em" religion. Many Apostolics have related to me how wonderful the experience of the sacrament of the Eucharist is because of the communion with God. Of course, that is impossible if all we really have to work with are rationalizations or plausible explanations.
If faith were reasoned it would be logical.
Faith IS logical. It is not born of logic, but logic fully supports it, with Godly presuppositions, which used to be common even among unbelievers.
Incarnation and angels are not logical. Gravity is not logical. The world, as it is, the universe, is not logical to human mindset.
Of course all of these things are logical. What would say would be logical IN PLACE of all of these things? Utter nothingness?
What you call a bible is a sanitized man-made version of a bunch of scraps put together, presumed to be written by the authors it claims, and believed to be "inspired."
But I take it that this "bunch of scraps" is highly revered and followed as Tradition in the Orthodox Church? Are the writings of the Fathers better than a "bunch of scraps"? :)
I am trying to show you that there is no proof that will satisfy our reason. Yet, we believe...believe it or not I believe in spite of everything I say. It's like trying to sand down titanium with a cotton ball! It is a humbling experience to realize that no amount of reasoning will touch the faith, and it is equally humbling to realize that this did not come from anything I read, learned or heard or done. We have no clue why we believe. We can come up with reasons and even rationalizations as to why, but the bottom line is we don't know why some believe and others don't.
It is not born our of reason and therefore it is not rational, FK. For reason neither builds nor destroys faith. And if we can't prove why we believe we can't prove anything about it. Faith is proof unto itself. Orthodox Catechism states it is "where words fall silent, where reason fades, where all human knowledge and comprehension cease, where God is." It is complete surrender.
Rationalization is the enemy of reason
Well, in absence of real knowledge we tend to rationalize to, as I said, "come up with plausible explanations for something we don't understand." Thus, when ancients saw thunder they rationalized it to be God's wrath. When they felt earth shake, they figured God was "shaking" the earth. When they saw a man who couldn't walk or had boils they rationalized he was stricken with a "plague" because he must have done something bad and God punished him. When some tribes heard a volcano rumble, guess what...you get my point.
The problem with such rationalizations is that (a) they provide a plausible explanation that satisfies our human mindset (but are almost always dead wrong) and (b) they stop anyone from seeking real causes. Thus we have both something misleading and stifling knowledge. It creates myths and legends, and it actually perpetuates ignorance.
The problem with faith is that we can't just accept it. We must make it "reasonable" according to our standards of logic. It has to "make sense" to us first and foremost. Otherwise, as the saying goes, we "can't believe God would do such a thing!"
Of course all of these things [Incarnation, angels, etc] are logical. What would say would be logical IN PLACE of all of these things? Utter nothingness?
Well, let's see, nothing we have actually seen or understood. What would you call that? Unicorns on Jupiter? Nothingness? Hardly. Why must everything be logical to us? Contrary to what you say, gravity is not logical. We have no clue why gravity exists! How can that be logical? Both matter and electromagnetic radiation is subject to gravity; bodies attract each other physically on all levels. We are sitting on earth because the earth pulls on us and our bodies pull on the earth. It makes no sense, FK. There is no "logical" explanation for the universal existence of gravity. Of course, gravity keeps all things together, but that doesn't tell us why. Screw, nails and tenons keep furniture joints together too. Why use one over the other is a different story. You have to ask the maker. You can't deduce it logically.
But I take it that this "bunch of scraps" is highly revered and followed as Tradition in the Orthodox Church? Are the writings of the Fathers better than a "bunch of scraps"
Both are expressions of a phenomenon we call faith. The authors of the "scraps" express their faith, and so do the Fathers of the Church in their writings. They are all testament to man's faith. They don't contradict each other. They express and recognize the same faith.