I am trying to show you that there is no proof that will satisfy our reason. Yet, we believe...believe it or not I believe in spite of everything I say. It's like trying to sand down titanium with a cotton ball! It is a humbling experience to realize that no amount of reasoning will touch the faith, and it is equally humbling to realize that this did not come from anything I read, learned or heard or done. We have no clue why we believe. We can come up with reasons and even rationalizations as to why, but the bottom line is we don't know why some believe and others don't.
It is not born our of reason and therefore it is not rational, FK. For reason neither builds nor destroys faith. And if we can't prove why we believe we can't prove anything about it. Faith is proof unto itself. Orthodox Catechism states it is "where words fall silent, where reason fades, where all human knowledge and comprehension cease, where God is." It is complete surrender.
Rationalization is the enemy of reason
Well, in absence of real knowledge we tend to rationalize to, as I said, "come up with plausible explanations for something we don't understand." Thus, when ancients saw thunder they rationalized it to be God's wrath. When they felt earth shake, they figured God was "shaking" the earth. When they saw a man who couldn't walk or had boils they rationalized he was stricken with a "plague" because he must have done something bad and God punished him. When some tribes heard a volcano rumble, guess what...you get my point.
The problem with such rationalizations is that (a) they provide a plausible explanation that satisfies our human mindset (but are almost always dead wrong) and (b) they stop anyone from seeking real causes. Thus we have both something misleading and stifling knowledge. It creates myths and legends, and it actually perpetuates ignorance.
The problem with faith is that we can't just accept it. We must make it "reasonable" according to our standards of logic. It has to "make sense" to us first and foremost. Otherwise, as the saying goes, we "can't believe God would do such a thing!"
Of course all of these things [Incarnation, angels, etc] are logical. What would say would be logical IN PLACE of all of these things? Utter nothingness?
Well, let's see, nothing we have actually seen or understood. What would you call that? Unicorns on Jupiter? Nothingness? Hardly. Why must everything be logical to us? Contrary to what you say, gravity is not logical. We have no clue why gravity exists! How can that be logical? Both matter and electromagnetic radiation is subject to gravity; bodies attract each other physically on all levels. We are sitting on earth because the earth pulls on us and our bodies pull on the earth. It makes no sense, FK. There is no "logical" explanation for the universal existence of gravity. Of course, gravity keeps all things together, but that doesn't tell us why. Screw, nails and tenons keep furniture joints together too. Why use one over the other is a different story. You have to ask the maker. You can't deduce it logically.
But I take it that this "bunch of scraps" is highly revered and followed as Tradition in the Orthodox Church? Are the writings of the Fathers better than a "bunch of scraps"
Both are expressions of a phenomenon we call faith. The authors of the "scraps" express their faith, and so do the Fathers of the Church in their writings. They are all testament to man's faith. They don't contradict each other. They express and recognize the same faith.
ancients saw thunder = ancients heard thunder
I just heard an excellent discussion on Romans 1. Please consider this text:
The problem is not that man does not believe in God. The problem is that man does not wish to acknowledge God; he just doesn't want to give God any glory. It is inherit in our rebellious nature. To make matters worst, man deliberately create things to take the place of God.
Faith isn't a leap into the unknown. Rather faith is the acknowledgement of what is known.
I am trying to show you that there is no proof that will satisfy our reason.
Yes, that is what I was trying to flesh out. There is no proof that will satisfy your personal reason, and perhaps the reason of the men of your Church. That, of course, does not apply to so called Bible-believing Christians, as Harley so ably demonstrated in his response, quoting from Romans.
Yet, we believe...believe it or not I believe in spite of everything I say. It's like trying to sand down titanium with a cotton ball! It is a humbling experience to realize that no amount of reasoning will touch the faith, and it is equally humbling to realize that this did not come from anything I read, learned or heard or done. We have no clue why we believe.
Wouldn't that mean that there is nothing behind your faith by simple definition? :) I'm sure you would (correctly) say that your faith is superior to that of the Heaven's Gate cult, but why should anyone believe you? You appear to be unable to obey God when He says through Peter: "1 Peter 3:15 : 15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, ..."
It is not born our of reason and therefore it is not rational, FK.
So you are defining that UNLESS a thing comes from man alone, it is irrational? If God is irrational, then do you think that man generates his own reason apart from God? I mean, how can God give something He Himself does not have to give?
For reason neither builds nor destroys faith. And if we can't prove why we believe we can't prove anything about it.
Well, I for one KNOW that my faith is stronger because it is in conformity with the reality of our world and existence. The Christian faith matches what we know .... IS.
FK: "Rationalization is the enemy of reason."
Well, in absence of real knowledge we tend to rationalize to, as I said, "come up with plausible explanations for something we don't understand."
The Bible says that God gives knowledge, as I quoted earlier. I suppose the Bible is either right or wrong.
Thus, when ancients saw thunder they rationalized it to be God's wrath. When they felt earth shake, they figured God was "shaking" the earth. When they saw a man who couldn't walk or had boils they rationalized he was stricken with a "plague" because he must have done something bad and God punished him. When some tribes heard a volcano rumble, guess what...you get my point.
So you would say that based on your 21st century mind, that God doesn't execute wrath through storms or earthquakes? And you further know that God does not afflict with boils and sores? Of course some overdo it by declaring above their own knowledge. For example, someone saying he KNOWS that 9/11 was God's wrath against the US. But that isn't the point. The point is believing that God DOES what the Bible says He does, OR, believing that if there is ANOTHER explanation consistent with modern science, that the scientific explanation MUST be true and the Biblical explanation MUST be false.
The problem with faith is that we can't just accept it. We must make it "reasonable" according to our standards of logic.
All false faiths ultimately "make no sense". Why should Christianity be like them?
Why must everything be logical to us?
Of course not EVERYTHING of God appears logical to us. But ENOUGH of His revelation is logical that we can know He is a rational Being. ENOUGH of His revelation proves to us that He is a personal Being.
Contrary to what you say, gravity is not logical. We have no clue why gravity exists! How can that be logical?
If you don't think gravity is logical then I can't imagine what you would say IS logical. :) We know that God created all matter with gravimetric properties. Today, we have a pretty good idea how many of those properties work. Would it be more logical if all matter just floated around in space, and if so, why? :) The point is, IF God wanted us to live on the earth (for now), then gravity makes perfect sense.