Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
Yes, in many ways I couldn't agree more. And this truth is why many of those on my side have trouble understanding or accepting the idea of "always and everywhere believed".
[continuing:] It's really hard to imagine God planned it that way!
I agree that it is difficult in some ways. However, I don't see it as being altogether unhealthy either. Paul and Barnabas split and the long term result was good for Christianity. Now, I realize that they probably did not disagree as much as you and I do, BUT we still have the most fundamental and important things in common. If it is actually true that in Heaven there are Orthodox and Baptists and Latins and Presbyterians, etc., etc., then I can conceive of how God could have wanted things to be exactly the way they are right now.
So, to put it another way, the God you claim to know is not quoted as having said He came to save the Gentiles; only the lost sheep of Israel.
Here is a quote:
John 10:14-16 : 14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father — and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
This is a clear reference to non-Jews (Gentiles). Paul supports Jesus by explaining to us how non-Jews can nevertheless be considered sheep. Paul AND Jesus are both right.
Mercy is extended to dogs as well. They are God's creatures too. On the other hand,you could say that she converted when she saw Christ and was therefore no longer a "dog." But, then, Jesus would have known that and would not have to wait to "discover" her great faith.
If she was converted upon seeing Jesus, a perfectly good possibility with me, then that would be further evidence that Jesus came to save Gentiles. Since Jesus knew ahead of time, and if He did not come to save Gentiles, then He would have avoided the situation.
FK: "Can anyone change his own essence?"
Of course. What do you think happened to Adam and Eve? Were they created mortal?
That's a fair point to raise, but it looks like it gets pretty sticky on defining what "essence" is. Adam and Eve were still created in God's image, just as we are, and they were capable of sin, just as we are. Of course they instituted the "Fallen nature", but for believers that is only a temporary state. In any event, at best I would think that to be a one-time exception.
FK: "While it is true that the message was designed to be carried to the Jews first, there was never any question but that it would also be taken to the Gentiles. God actually knew what He was doing."
This is still +Paul talking. Christ is never quoted as having said anything like that.
It seems like the amount of scripture you will even consider as being POSSIBLY true is getting smaller and smaller. From memory, we started with the NT, and then we narrowed that down to the Gospels, and now it looks like we are narrowing it down to only quotes from Jesus. Since the scriptures are my main source (and you have no use at all for any of my other sources :) I suppose it is going to remain particularly difficult to make arguments to you that you could possibly find reasonable. :)
I think I've seen that picture. Whenever I see it I always wonder what that very dark straight line is that comes down from the top and then wraps around under the chin area. Very strange.
FK: "Yes, they just aren’t used/performed to earn salvation."
Mark: "Then what are they essential for?"
Works are essential for fulfilling God's plan for His children:
Eph 2:10 : For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Barring the usual exceptions, this includes salvation. A true believer WILL bear fruit. A false believer will not. True believers will do good works naturally. The latter proceeds from the former every single time. In a sense, it's really one thing. I get the impression that the Latin view is that works and faith are two completely separate things, which must be independently chosen by any prospective or actual believer.
Ironically, this system, which I deny totally, is exactly the type of system that would be conducive to the "pecca fortier mentality" that my side is accused of on a daily basis! :) That is, I could ask why shouldn't Catholics feel they can sin all they want to during the week, and then simply clean it up with a confession and a couple of "Hail Mary's".
What happens if the Reformed do no works at all?
Normally, that would describe a person who claimed to be Reformed, but was actually of the "Lord, Lord" ilk. A true Reformed is a true believer, changed by God. That person will WANT to do works of his own "free will".
It is not up to the Church to save or damn - that is God’s prerogative. The Church is the teaching authority, not the Judge.
That dismisses what is going through the minds of the laymen your hierarchy is "effectively" damning to hell. Plus, it doesn't match the Catechism:
1495 Only priests who have received the faculty of absolving from the authority of the Church can forgive sins in the name of Christ.
1496 The spiritual effects of the sacrament of Penance are:
- reconciliation with God by which the penitent recovers grace;
- reconciliation with the Church;
- remission of the eternal punishment incurred by mortal sins;
- remission, at least in part, of temporal punishments resulting from sin;
- peace and serenity of conscience, and spiritual consolation;
- an increase of spiritual strength for the Christian battle.
1497 Individual and integral confession of grave sins followed by absolution remains the only ordinary means of reconciliation with God and with the Church. (all emphasis added)
The words are the words, they speak for themselves. And, BTW, the words of the Catechism here actually match what I have interpreted from Catholics. Most will not admit it, but it really is the men of the Church who decide salvation or damnation in a very real sense to the average layman. What else could one think after reading the above (and there are more examples)?
(pssst: that’s the reader’s digest version of the Athanasian Creed. The < a href=”http://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html";>real deal</a> is maybe 5-6 times longer.)
I only excerpted some of the propositions concerning the trinity. I don’t believe the others contradict the ones posted. The creed is internally consistant.
No extra charge. Just part of the service we offer. No salesman will call.
I’m guessing misplaced modifier. I would substitute “and” (or “With” or “through” for “including” and move the phrase to right after “He”.
I don't have an agenda. As I used to say when I was in the military: my pay is the same. What motivates me is desire for truth. If you wish to call God "Daddy," that's your prerogative. But when someone decides to make up a story that "Ab" means "Dad" and "Abba" means "Daddy" (and Dr. Eckleburg is exhilarated to "learn" something new form that!), I feel that something needs to be said before such a travesty becomes "official truth" by repetition.
IT: Did you REALLY mean to say this, or is this a typo?
I didn't phrase is very well. The Father is not the Creator of, but the Source of divinity, of course, that is, of the Son and the Spirit. He is the eternal Source of both. The Son is begotten, and the Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father.
I didn't phrase is very well. I lumped the Creator and the Source sloppily and I deserve to be "scolded" for this. Please see my response #3,591. The Father is the Source of everything and all, including the divinity. The Son is eternally begotten and the Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father. The Father is the only Person of the Holy trinity Who is without cause.
Sooooo.. You believe the Son of God was created in Mary and did not exist before that?.. You know before he took on flesh for a time?..Surely you don;t believe that do you?..
Certainly I agree. Complacency is generally not a good thing. I DID say "not ignore" and I don't think I'm advocating either ignorance of complacency.
We are taught that sin needs correction.
No disagreement.
I think If no one ever says anything then sin will just continue to grow in any organization.
I agree with all this. <[p>But this is not just noting the evils done by Catholics, but also ignoring (even suppressing) the good.
I think, despite my ignorance of Jebbie slave-holders, that generally people know more about the evils of Catholic history, including stuff that never happened, than they do about the good stuff the RC Church and culture did. (Never let us forget the Pope who tried to ban the use of the crossbow in warfare because it was just TOO destructive!)(Of course, I can't remember him, but never mind.)
I think we kind of took the lead on the whole hospital thing, unless you count the Buddhist King Ashoka. And certainly I never heard from my teachers or from Hollywood, etc. of the Catholic clergy and friars who worked hard to restrain the secular conquistadors and to protect the indigenous peoples.
Shogunpresent Franciscans and Jebbies as almost cartoon evil figures, but evidently somebody did something right in Japan Xty was kept alive in hiding for centuries there after the last Catholic missionary was killed or expelled.
It was the characterization of us asking people to ignore the bad apples and the expression that our track record stinks that led to my remark, not any suggestion that we should ignore. On the contrary, as soon as my novitiate study schedule permits I'm going to be looking into how the Dominicans decayed so that Lacordaire could get such praise for restoring their moxie in the 19th century.
I think the witness of Scripture is precisely that we can at once claim Apostolic mojo and have shameful episodes. Is any of those who claim Peter as "prince of the Apostles" (a phrase I don't much like, and this attribution of noble titles gets downright silly in Dante) denying that AFTER Pentecost he had a major attack of shameful wussiness (Gal 2:11-14) in Antioch.
Again I say, Dante liters the pavement of Hell with popes and bishops. There's no ignoring going on here.. This really is like pushing a rope uphill.
Look, I've been a clergy-dude, albeit not RC. I KNOW Clergy are corrupt dopes. I WAS one and, left to my own devices, I'm a corrupt dope. I know a chunk of RC clergy. One is a dry-drunk. One, if he were in my care, would be give some kind of remedial something or other. One is a slightly warmed over commie. Many are full of themselves. I don't ignore this, though sometimes I wish they'd make it easier to ignore!
There's a prayer we say shortly before we receive communion. As given to us it asks Jesus to "Look not on our sins but on the faith of your church ...". One priest I knew thought he knew better than the church so he always changed that to "but on the goodness of your church," and I always whispered, "No, Lord, anything but that!"
It is funny and sad the mistrust "across the aisle". It is the Gentiles who say that trusting in God and His grace made real in our lives through faith will lead to ignoring sin. Yet when we Catholics look on the sinfulness of ourselves and of some of our leaders, shrug, and return to our prayers, we fall under suspicion for ignoring evil and sin. Evidently it doesn't occur to the other parties in the dialogue that we too might trust God to bring good out of evil, and trust Him so much that much evil fails to upset us (especially if it was a while ago and happened to somebody else, I hasten to admit.)
One last wheeze here: We are portrayed as hag-ridden by guilt. Some of us go to confession at least once every 2-3 weeks, and it is immediately concluded that we are sexually repressed, upset about nocturnal emmissions or something equally ridiculous OR just paying another insurance premium.
It seems unthinkable that we might be trying to "be still and to allow God to order our lives around His peace. The notion that we might actually be aware of the ridiculousness of shame in the face of God's love is not considered. We are, in a way, some of us, trying to join God in imputing righteousness to ourselves by ACTING not as though sins were too shameful to acknowledge but rather with the growing confidence that in God's grace and mercy sins are something He can turn into a royal road to His heart.
I am aware of sin, of my own especially, though not as much as I should be. I am not hag-ridden. I live (yet not I, but Christ lives in me) by grace and in faith that God is working in me, both to will and to do for his good pleasure.
At least I do, right up until I haul out the IRS Form 1040. Then my confidence and peace melt away like spring snow. Darn it!
Okay. I’m hauling out the soggy noodle. Brace yourself. Flogging ahead.
The creed is internally interminable!
The Father incomprehensible,Only kidding. I really like the Athanasian Creed.
the Son incomprehensible,
The Spirit incomprehensible ...the whole THING incomprehensible!
I would have thought attributing an agenda would be mind-reading. But that’s just me.
You seem to have no problems believing that there was always a "core" of patriarchs and prophets who "knew" Jesus before Incarnation. IOW, there was always the orthodox faith. Just because the rest of Israel didn't follow it, doesn't mean it didn't exist. It's not about numbers.
If it is actually true that in Heaven there are Orthodox and Baptists and Latins and Presbyterians, etc., etc., then I can conceive of how God could have wanted things to be exactly the way they are right now.
God wanted man to be virtuous. He doe snot distinguish between denominations. There are virtuous people in spite of their errors of judgment.
John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also....This is a clear reference to non-Jews (Gentiles). Paul supports Jesus by explaining to us how non-Jews can nevertheless be considered sheep. Paul AND Jesus are both right
FK, you are ignoring the earlier Gospels that quote Jesus with utmost clarity that He was sent for the "lost sheep of Israel only," [Mat 15:240 and that He sends his disciples only to the "lost sheep of Israel" and specifically forbids them to go to Gentiles and Samaritans [Mat 10:6].
Likewise, He never even hints for any one of His disciples to go to the Gentile, ever. The Great Commission, if it hadn't been added at some latter date, can just as well be taken to apply only to the Jews. The word "nations" is tribes, as in tribes of Israel; why would He have chosen 12 Apostles if not one for each tribe of Israel?
Of course, considering when John's Gospel was written, it was imperative for the Good News to be interpreted as including the Gentiles—but even then only by implication.
Obviously there were those Jews who knew His voice, but there were also those "lost sheep of Israel" who didn't. And He was sent to gather those "lost sheep of Israel."
If she was converted upon seeing Jesus, a perfectly good possibility with me, then that would be further evidence that Jesus came to save Gentiles. Since Jesus knew ahead of time, and if He did not come to save Gentiles, then He would have avoided the situation
What are you talking about? He was going to have none of that! God can save whomever He wants to save. But His mission was specifically stated as being for the "lost sheep of Israel."
And the way the story goes, it doesn't look like He "knew" that she believed when she approached Him.
That's a fair point to raise, but it looks like it gets pretty sticky on defining what "essence" is
Not tricky at all, FK. Essence or nature in this case is immortal and mortal.
Of course they instituted the "Fallen nature", but for believers that is only a temporary state. In any event, at best I would think that to be a one-time exception
Grace does not restore us to immortality in body as well. Our physical nature has changed. It's like going from a man to a monkey. We still have to die physically in order to be created anew. In other words the same soul, except "cleansed," in a new body. Our souls have to be raised to the human level again, in likeness of God, and our bodies have to be rebuilt pristine. It's an altogether new man as far as I am concerned. Perhaps the same "person" but a whole new refurbished being. That's not going to happen on earth. Banish that fantasy.
We cannot exist, as some posit, as souls only. God created us body and soul. That is our "Natural" state. Until we are completely purified, soul-wise, between particular and final judgment, we cannot be restored to immortality. The only question I have is what will stop us from doing, again, what Adam and Eve did!?
It seems like the amount of scripture you will even consider as being POSSIBLY true is getting smaller and smaller.
The extent of what I find truthful in the Bible is limited comapred to those who soak every word in it as God's word.
Where the Scripture speaks of those things not found in the natural world, love, mercy, compassion, justice, virtue,etc. the message of the scriptures, NT or OT, is true.
The "truth" of it is that there is no naturally occurring merciful animal, no naturally occurring sense of compassion in man. Left to their own devices, humans will invariably act animal-like. So, even the notion of, let alone desire for mercy, compassion and unconditional love, can safely be said to be "not of this world." We believe they are of God.
The other message that's found throughout the Bible is that God will forgive if we repent, and if God is the "out of this world" source of our notions of love and mercy, then He is a forgiving and loving God and repentance is our key to His grace.
Ouch!
I never said that. I didn't express myself very well. Read my follow ups.
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