Yes, in many ways I couldn't agree more. And this truth is why many of those on my side have trouble understanding or accepting the idea of "always and everywhere believed".
[continuing:] It's really hard to imagine God planned it that way!
I agree that it is difficult in some ways. However, I don't see it as being altogether unhealthy either. Paul and Barnabas split and the long term result was good for Christianity. Now, I realize that they probably did not disagree as much as you and I do, BUT we still have the most fundamental and important things in common. If it is actually true that in Heaven there are Orthodox and Baptists and Latins and Presbyterians, etc., etc., then I can conceive of how God could have wanted things to be exactly the way they are right now.
So, to put it another way, the God you claim to know is not quoted as having said He came to save the Gentiles; only the lost sheep of Israel.
Here is a quote:
John 10:14-16 : 14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father — and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
This is a clear reference to non-Jews (Gentiles). Paul supports Jesus by explaining to us how non-Jews can nevertheless be considered sheep. Paul AND Jesus are both right.
Mercy is extended to dogs as well. They are God's creatures too. On the other hand,you could say that she converted when she saw Christ and was therefore no longer a "dog." But, then, Jesus would have known that and would not have to wait to "discover" her great faith.
If she was converted upon seeing Jesus, a perfectly good possibility with me, then that would be further evidence that Jesus came to save Gentiles. Since Jesus knew ahead of time, and if He did not come to save Gentiles, then He would have avoided the situation.
FK: "Can anyone change his own essence?"
Of course. What do you think happened to Adam and Eve? Were they created mortal?
That's a fair point to raise, but it looks like it gets pretty sticky on defining what "essence" is. Adam and Eve were still created in God's image, just as we are, and they were capable of sin, just as we are. Of course they instituted the "Fallen nature", but for believers that is only a temporary state. In any event, at best I would think that to be a one-time exception.
FK: "While it is true that the message was designed to be carried to the Jews first, there was never any question but that it would also be taken to the Gentiles. God actually knew what He was doing."
This is still +Paul talking. Christ is never quoted as having said anything like that.
It seems like the amount of scripture you will even consider as being POSSIBLY true is getting smaller and smaller. From memory, we started with the NT, and then we narrowed that down to the Gospels, and now it looks like we are narrowing it down to only quotes from Jesus. Since the scriptures are my main source (and you have no use at all for any of my other sources :) I suppose it is going to remain particularly difficult to make arguments to you that you could possibly find reasonable. :)
You seem to have no problems believing that there was always a "core" of patriarchs and prophets who "knew" Jesus before Incarnation. IOW, there was always the orthodox faith. Just because the rest of Israel didn't follow it, doesn't mean it didn't exist. It's not about numbers.
If it is actually true that in Heaven there are Orthodox and Baptists and Latins and Presbyterians, etc., etc., then I can conceive of how God could have wanted things to be exactly the way they are right now.
God wanted man to be virtuous. He doe snot distinguish between denominations. There are virtuous people in spite of their errors of judgment.
John 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also....This is a clear reference to non-Jews (Gentiles). Paul supports Jesus by explaining to us how non-Jews can nevertheless be considered sheep. Paul AND Jesus are both right
FK, you are ignoring the earlier Gospels that quote Jesus with utmost clarity that He was sent for the "lost sheep of Israel only," [Mat 15:240 and that He sends his disciples only to the "lost sheep of Israel" and specifically forbids them to go to Gentiles and Samaritans [Mat 10:6].
Likewise, He never even hints for any one of His disciples to go to the Gentile, ever. The Great Commission, if it hadn't been added at some latter date, can just as well be taken to apply only to the Jews. The word "nations" is tribes, as in tribes of Israel; why would He have chosen 12 Apostles if not one for each tribe of Israel?
Of course, considering when John's Gospel was written, it was imperative for the Good News to be interpreted as including the Gentiles—but even then only by implication.
Obviously there were those Jews who knew His voice, but there were also those "lost sheep of Israel" who didn't. And He was sent to gather those "lost sheep of Israel."
If she was converted upon seeing Jesus, a perfectly good possibility with me, then that would be further evidence that Jesus came to save Gentiles. Since Jesus knew ahead of time, and if He did not come to save Gentiles, then He would have avoided the situation
What are you talking about? He was going to have none of that! God can save whomever He wants to save. But His mission was specifically stated as being for the "lost sheep of Israel."
And the way the story goes, it doesn't look like He "knew" that she believed when she approached Him.
That's a fair point to raise, but it looks like it gets pretty sticky on defining what "essence" is
Not tricky at all, FK. Essence or nature in this case is immortal and mortal.
Of course they instituted the "Fallen nature", but for believers that is only a temporary state. In any event, at best I would think that to be a one-time exception
Grace does not restore us to immortality in body as well. Our physical nature has changed. It's like going from a man to a monkey. We still have to die physically in order to be created anew. In other words the same soul, except "cleansed," in a new body. Our souls have to be raised to the human level again, in likeness of God, and our bodies have to be rebuilt pristine. It's an altogether new man as far as I am concerned. Perhaps the same "person" but a whole new refurbished being. That's not going to happen on earth. Banish that fantasy.
We cannot exist, as some posit, as souls only. God created us body and soul. That is our "Natural" state. Until we are completely purified, soul-wise, between particular and final judgment, we cannot be restored to immortality. The only question I have is what will stop us from doing, again, what Adam and Eve did!?
It seems like the amount of scripture you will even consider as being POSSIBLY true is getting smaller and smaller.
The extent of what I find truthful in the Bible is limited comapred to those who soak every word in it as God's word.
Where the Scripture speaks of those things not found in the natural world, love, mercy, compassion, justice, virtue,etc. the message of the scriptures, NT or OT, is true.
The "truth" of it is that there is no naturally occurring merciful animal, no naturally occurring sense of compassion in man. Left to their own devices, humans will invariably act animal-like. So, even the notion of, let alone desire for mercy, compassion and unconditional love, can safely be said to be "not of this world." We believe they are of God.
The other message that's found throughout the Bible is that God will forgive if we repent, and if God is the "out of this world" source of our notions of love and mercy, then He is a forgiving and loving God and repentance is our key to His grace.
At bottom, the “always and everywhere believed” claim is empty and our young in Christ should not be confounded by it or other such claim of supreme, exclusive authority to convey the words of God, e.g. Mormonism and Catholicism. Obviously, for one to be right about exclusive authority, the other would have to be wrong - and I submit that puts too much pressure on new Christians.
Rather, I aver we ought to encourage the young in Christ to love God surpassingly above all else, submit to Him. And we ought to trust Him that He will guide them according to His own will – which may or may not include submitting to an assembly which claims exclusive authority. At the very least, we ought never become an obstruction.
But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
And he took them up in his arms, put [his] hands upon them, and blessed them. – Mark 10:13-16
Peter was not like John who was not like Paul who was not like James who was not like doubting Thomas - but Christ chose each one of them. Moreover, He did not treat them exactly the same.
Likewise the foundation of the New Jerusalem is comprised of twelve very different gemstones, one for each apostle. The twelve gates, named for the tribes of Israel, by contrast, are all pearls.
And again in the description of the gifts of the Spirit and the body of Christ in I Corinthians 12 we see that not every Christian has the same gifts, calling or responsibility.
Therefore I aver it is spiritually wrong-headed to ever judge or condemn a person at all, much less one who is declaring Christ but additional doctrines and traditions which seem strange.
These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. – Proverbs 6:16-19
To God be the glory!