Conclusion from Peru and Mexico

ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.

My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.

I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.

It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.

I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.

Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."

But we believe that Christ did suffer corruption, precisely because He is fully human. So, in His human nature, which is unconfused and unmixed with His divine nature, yet inseparable, He suffers injury and death.S, how can +Athanasius say "For while He Himself was in no way injured, being impossible and incorruptible and very Word and God."

Huh? What I quoted was directly from the translation of On the Incarnation of the Word

I am aware of that. Even those who considered Christ only divine admit to His Incarnation. They think of ti as if God covered ("dressed" or "disguised") Himself as a human, but never was human.

The Church did not, have a clearly defined Christology until the 5th century and beyond (read up on what Pope Honorius condemned posthumously), and even then it continued the Christological struggle with others. There were dissenting opinions among the highest of Church officials (Patriarchs even, especially those of the East, including Constantinople).

Absolutely! (How could you have a resurrection without a death?)

Fom the beginning some heretics believes and stll believe that His death was a "show," an "act," and that He never died (being God).

Even the Creed, curiously, doesn't say He died (only that he suffered and was buried). The Creed doesn't say He went to hell either, although the Church firmly believes it (non scriptural). But the Creed clearly distances itself from Pauline theology, which teaches that God [sic] raised Him, by saying "and He rose on the third day [some Creed texts have the oxymoron "again" in the text].

Yes I am aware of +John of Damascus' writing on the subject.

FK: "I don't see what relevance your term "Nohaides" has to anything we're talking about."

It has everything to do with the mindset of the authors of the NT. They were seeing the world through the eyes of Judaism, not Christianity or, for that matter 21st century Protestant Christians.

Well, if the authors were just random people who were writing their own stuff, then the Bible is just another book, and all of this is moot. I'm not sure how you can know what their mindsets were if you deny they were being directly led by the Spirit in their writings.

FK: "The Jews were wrong about many things at that time."

So were the Christians who expected the second coming within one generation. So were the Apostles who expected Christ to restore the kingdom of Israel after the Resurrection.

Ah, so if this is true, then I'm sure you would agree with me that it is fully possible that the early Church Fathers were wrong about a great many things. :)

There is nowhere in the NT that says that Christ came to save the Gentiles. It was a reaction to the Jewish refusal of His ministry.

If God is only a reactor, rather than a leader, then God follows man. This is not the God I know.

He is quoted as saying that the only reason he was sent was for the lost sheep of Israel, And he specifically forbade the Apostles to minister to the Gentiles. He calls Gentiles "dogs."

But in that same story He says to the Gentile: "Woman, you have great faith, your request is granted". Now, do you really think that if she had asked Him to forgive her sins right there Jesus would have said "Sorry, no can do you DOG!"? Of course not. This story is a great clue as to what Jesus knew was coming.

FK: [Re Gal 2:15 "We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles"] He means by birth. He doesn't mean that Gentiles have a sinful nature and Jews do not.

He is stating that the Jews are somehow different form the Gentiles, by nature/essence, when it comes to being sinful. But, since not all Jews are born Jewish, your suggestion that he meant by "birth" is simply wrong as a matter of fact. He is saying that Jewishness somehow separates people by nature (essence), that the Gentiles can never be like the Jews. He makes that very clear.

You are making my point for me. Since you admit that some Jews were converts (true), THEN no one can say that Jews have a different essence. Can anyone change his own essence? No. I thought you used to be one who argued strongly that God plays no favorites. What made you change to this opposite view? All men stand equally before God in their sins. While it is true that the message was designed to be carried to the Jews first, there was never any question but that it would also be taken to the Gentiles. God actually knew what He was doing. :)

That is entirely in harmony with the Jewish attitude towards the Noahaides (the "righteous Gentiles") who, although saved because they followed the law, could never be the same as the Jews.

No one ever has or ever will be saved by following the law. That is a works based salvation and no one can do it.

Rom 3:20 : Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Rom 3:28-31 : 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Gal 2:15-16 : 15 "We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

I am starting with the premise that they were human, and you are claimng that they were led by the Holy Spirit. I don't have to prove anything. You do.

Ah, so if this is true, then I'm sure you would agree with me that it is fully possible that the early Church Fathers were wrong about a great many things. :)

Many of them, FK. They are all on the list of trinitarian and christological heretics. Many a Church leader did not fully grasp the orthodox faith. That's why there were so many councils regarding their differences.

It took the Church 300-plus years to weed out most chrisotlogical and trinitarian heresies, and just as long to agree on the canon.

That's what +Ignatius, and Irenaeus, to mention the ealriest ones, wrote about. That's what +Paul's Epistles are all about—aberrant church communities.

Christianity was divided from the getgo, just as it is today. We are no different than Israel was under the Old Covenant. It's really hard to imagine God planned it that way!

Kosta: There is nowhere in the NT that says that Christ came to save the Gentiles. It was a reaction to the Jewish refusal of His ministry

FK; If God is only a reactor, rather than a leader, then God follows man. This is not the God I know

I am not asking about "your" God; I am stating what's written (or better yet what's not written). So, to put it another way, the God you claim to know is not quoted as having said He came to save the Gentiles; only the lost sheep of Israel.

Mercy is extended to dogs as well. They are God's creatures too. On the other hand,you could say that she converted when she saw Christ and was therefore no longer a "dog." But, then, Jesus would have known that and would not have to wait to "discover" her great faith.

You are making my point for me

No, I am not. :)

Can anyone change his own essence?

Of course. What do you think happened to Adam and Eve? Were they created mortal?

I thought you used to be one who argued strongly that God plays no favorites

I still do. It's not God; it's +Paul. We are talking about +Paul, remember?

While it is true that the message was designed to be carried to the Jews first, there was never any question but that it would also be taken to the Gentiles. God actually knew what He was doing.

This is still +Paul talking. Christ is never quoted as having said anything like that.

No one ever has or ever will be saved by following the law. That is a works based salvation and no one can do it.

The Jews believed that, and so did many Christian Jews. They considered Gentile converts the same way as the Jews considered Noahides: saved but not equal to the Jews. Not everyone subscribed to +Paul's formula. The early Fathers clearly remind us of "Judaizers" and, as Didache calls them, "hypocrites."

Beware of worshiping +Paul.

FK: "Well, I suppose we have a great deal of disagreement over exactly WHAT was finished."

I guess we do. Finished means perfect, complete. That includes the delivery of the true faith. The faith is delivered once from the lips of the Lord Himself. He said nothing of someone else picking up after Him. The same thing with Revelation. If Christ is the fullest revelation of God, why is there a "sequel?".

I don't know who you mean by "someone else" and I'm not sure what "sequel" means. Christ finished His role on earth toward the salvation of the elect. All of their sins were then paid for in full (within time). All of His actions were predestined by God, just as all the elect are predestined to believe and be saved. Jesus said He came to save, but under Apostolic thought no one was saved because He came. Therefore, Christ's work could not have been finished. We say His work on earth WAS finished as to salvation.

Our works are a reflection of our faith. We do works because, as you said yourself, God left us work to do. Being restored to the likeness of God is not accomplished with a magic wand.

Being restored to the image of God is what we call sanctification and happens after salvation is already sealed by grace through faith. Since God's grace is not earned, for us, and it comes only from God, I suppose it could be compared to a magic wand. IOW, God doesn't need our help to get what He wants done. If He really loved and wanted His elect to be saved, He would not roll the dice and leave it in the hands of men.

The NT, more precisely, the Gospels, are the narratives of God's revelation to man in His human nature. Without that, Christianity is meaningless because it would worship an unknown, distant deity which our human minds cannot conceive. In Christ, we can relate to God through His human nature, as use His humanity as our standard of what humans ought to be like.

I would agree with everything except to say that it applies to the WHOLE Bible, not just the Gospels. Do you really learn nothing about the nature of man outside the Gospels? I mean, it starts with Genesis! :)

The rest of the scriptures are either hints leading to the Gospels, or after-the-fact human interpretation and imitation of His teachings and life as witnessed by the Gospels.

Then I shutter to ask what your opinion is of the OT. But even with the NT, if you throw human interpretation into the writing of it, then you must not have much use for it since human interpretation is always subject to error. I have always said that your side has little regard for Paul, and the response is always that he was right but we misinterpret him. Now you are confirming what I said since you are saying that he was making it up (or "could have been") through his own interpretation. That's not something anyone can be sure of.

[continuing:] The book of Revelation is not even that. It's more like a de novo prophesy as if Christ did not fulfill the law and the prophets. It suggests that Christ did not reveal all that was to be revealed. And it flies in the face of the Great Commission that the Apostles are to teach what has been revealed, and not to invent or add to His revelation by some heavenly Internet "downloads."

In written form, Christ did reveal all that He intended to reveal in the form of the Bible, not just the Gospels. If you think that everything outside of the Gospels is just sort of extra, that may or may not be true, then I don't understand why your side has fought so hard in defending the Deuterocanonicals. If they're not the Gospels, then what's the big deal? I mean, they probably have as much error as Paul's personal interpretation in his writings, right?

Yes, but nothing can top the Gospels.

Nothing needs to top the Gospels. All scriptures are equally true.

FK: That can't be. NT quotes of OT statements are VERBATIM.

Excuse me?!? And what evidence do you have that they are? Let me guess: the OT, right? LOL! If you'd bother to look up the issue, you'll find that ancients did not quote verbatim but when they do quote "verbatim" they expressed what the author believed the person would have said.

So, when we see the NT quoting verbatim from the OT, that tells you NOT that the Bible is God-breathed and without error, but rather that the OT must be wrong because you know that the ancients did not quote verbatim? Your view does appear to be very focused, I'll give you that. :)

I am saying that alleged quotes (which the Greeks and Jews don't use) are not verbatim quotes. In many instances, they simply can't be. Such as what Jesus said on the Cross. Except for John, all other Apostles were far away, hiding, to hear anything being said there. And please don't tell me the HS "told them." The get-out-of-all-dead-end-corners-about-the-Bible card. LOL!

You're only laughing at the words of Jesus Himself IN the Gospels:

Matt 10:19-20 : 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say , 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Mark 13:11 : Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say . Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

John 12:49 : For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

If it's good enough for Jesus, I would think it was good enough for the authors of the Scriptures. :)

That's all? Nine billion dollars is pocket change in our federal budget. If that were true, we should have the wall built by now without even feeling it. But beware that estimates are just that, and are always less than true cost (that's how you get them approved, by making the look cheap).

I agree with you that $9 billion is nothing compared to the importance of this, which is why I also agree that the explanation is obviously that there is not the political will to build it on either side. Sure estimates can be low, but I wouldn't care if it cost twice as much if it got the job done.

The problem with walls is that they need maintenance. Unmaintained walls just become another unmaintained border. Holes appear in them and people slip in.

I agree. There would have to be adequate forces to maintain them. I just think it would be much easier to maintain the fully open borders we have now, rather than have to justify a wasted wall given how much it would cost to build. I suppose by that I hope it IS more expensive. :)

Cut off the demand created by unethical greedy businesses, by enforcing the existing laws and depriving them on their illegitimate profits with fines, and the illegal immigration will not only stop but reverse itself. Once they can't find jobs, they will go back. No wall needed.

I agree that must be done also, but I don't think it would solve everything alone. The underground economy would mushroom to before unseen heights, and all the criminals, and terrorists (as you correctly pointed out), would still freely come over.

***That sounds like a very “pass-the-buck” position to me. :) As I understand it, GREAT discretion is used in the decision to excommunicate.***

It is not up to the Church to save or damn - that is God’s perogative. The Church is the teaching authority, not the Judge.

***For example, why isn’t John Kerry excommunicated? Worse than that, he is still served the Eucharist. It looks like it depends on who the celebrity is and who the Bishop is. ***

I don’t know why the likes of John Kerry and Nancy Pelosi are not excommunicated. Or the abortion doctors and nurses who happend to be Catholic. I don’t know.

*** And my only point in saying this is to show that it actually IS the Church who makes a decision on whether the person is “officially” damned or not. Anyone so deemed would be prohibited from taking the sacraments, and presumably could not be saved under normal circumstances. For one, he could not have his sins forgiven through a priest and would die in a state of mortal sin.***

The person who commits grievous sins and repents of them and believes in Jesus and is baptized, and does not commit them again will, according to Jesus, be saved.

***Well, then in what form does the imparting take if not by a vote of the majority?***

A whole bunch of segregated prayer and discussion and more prayer and more discussion and more prayer. The Truth is slowly arrived at by those men who have spent their lives in the service of God.

FK: "Man leads and God follows. Further, your Church claims that your clergy and your clergy alone can request that God do certain things and God will ALWAYS do those things EVEN IF the priest is unworthy (supernatural powers)."

It's interesting that this comes up as some are questioning A-G's claim (if such it be) to be speaking in or for the Spirit.

I think the distinction, as AG alluded to in her post, is that she in no way claims to be in any sort of elite "class" of Christians. We all receive spiritual gifts, but AG is NOT saying that her gifts are given to her BECAUSE of class. I think this is different than with the Apostolic clergy/hierarchy. For example, if faith and righteousness were measurable on a scale imagine there were two men with exactly the same number. One was a priest and one was a layman. The Church would see the priest as having exclusive rights to supernatural powers based solely on his class within Christianity.

The minister who thinks of the ministry as "his" is in trouble.

Yes, I agree with you. I think sometimes it can be an innocent, but potentially unfortunate choice of words, but other times it shows that the person doesn't have his priorities straight. OTOH, I have no problem or worry when Paul talks about "my Gospel". I think he deserves some slack on that. :)

What do you all make of Jacob wrassling the angel?

Well, in the context of the "thwarting God's will" discussion, I don't think for a minute that Jacob actually "defeated" the angel. The angel crippled Jacob with a mere touch. It was also not the angel's intention to kill Jacob. I see it as more of a learning experience, and Jacob also seemed to understand that this was not a normal fight. Unless there was a custom of which I am unaware, I don't ask my enemies for a blessing. :)

Thank you so much for all of your encouragements, dear brother in Christ!

Indeed, I certainly am nothing special at all. I'm just a plain and simple Christian.

Every Christian has been born again.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. - John 3:5-8

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

Every Christian has the indwelling Spirit.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:1-9

Every Christian has spiritual discernment.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. – I Corinthians 12:13

But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. - I Corinthians 2:10-16

And every Christian has gifts of the Spirit.

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.

If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body [were] an eye, where [were] the hearing? If the whole [were] hearing, where [were] the smelling?

But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

And if they were all one member, where [were] the body? But now [are they] many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

And those [members] of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness. For our comely [parts] have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that [part] which lacked:

That there should be no schism in the body; but [that] the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

[Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. – I Corinthians 12:12-31

To God be the glory!

This is very interesting. The "class" is the the group of those who have certain spiritual gifts. It's not that they have the gifts because they are in a class. (back to "not only bald, but has very little hair".) What ordination is is the bestowal by God of certain lifted spiritual gifts.

The Church would see the priest as having exclusive rights to (a limited and described set of) supernatural powers (not necessarily including faith and righeousness, in which laity have often exceeded the ordained clergy, to no one's surprise, I might add) based solely on his class within Christianity.

Those gifts would have more to do with the ordering of the "body" and would tend to be more regulatory. Further, the Church sometimes attempts, not with notable success, to respond to the evidence of certain spiritual gifts by admitting the one on whom they are bestowed to holy orders, in an effort to combine the gifts having to do with priestly or episcopal office with the other gifts you noted.

Don't forget Catherine of Siena: "Just" a woman, "just" a layperson, and yet she's yanking the chain of the Pope. I can't even remember the name of the Pope whose chain she yanked, but I remember her.

(Darn, I feel I didn't make my point too well here ...)

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