Posted on 10/26/2007 9:00:59 PM PDT by topcat54
So did Jesus come in the flesh in 70 AD or did Jesus not come in the flesh in 70 AD???
Is this from apprx. 30 AD to 1030 AD. It doesn't seem to make sense. Following the 1,000 yr reign Satan is released the final battle occurs and New Jerusalem comes out of heaven.
Many postmils believe that as well, however postmils generally see progress in the positive effect of the gospel over time.
There is no doubt believing the gospel does nothing but good. However, I don't believe Christianity as a whole is growing as fast as Islam.
I don't see understanding these issues as salvational, but more as discernment. I'm not looking for a flame war and I appreciate your thoughts. I don't believe the millennial kingdom has occurred so I guess that makes me a premillenialist.
This verse is a confirmation of the Trinity. As God ordained from before the foundation of the world, Jesus Christ, fully God and fully man, was born, died and rose to pay for our sins, the truth of which is made known to us by the Holy Spirit.
Dispensationalists really seem to weaken the message of the Gospel, IMO. They postpone what is already in front of our faces -- Christ risen, which all men are commanded to believe today.
Topcat's explanation of Christ "coming in the clouds" makes perfect sense when compared with other Scripture.
What are the effects of believing dispensationalism other than trepidation, anxiety and forsaking the preaching of the Gospel to all men, Jews included.
How can Christians go wrong in believing Christ reigns today?
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." -- Col. 1:16-17"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Christians prosper by the understanding that all existence is by and for and through Jesus Christ. It's the temporal world that loathes that fact, and so it has concocted any number of misdirections to take our eyes off the only truth in this life -- Jesus Christ.
As I've said before, I had never even heard much about dispensationalism until I came to this forum. It continues to be a source of perplexity and apparent contradiction to God's word and His mandate to "be not afraid; only believe" (Mark 5:36).
Christ rose from the dead, and nothing in this world has been the same since.
Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." -- Hebrews 9:24-28"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
This is what I know of salvation. Christ came and claimed His own, yesterday, today and tomorrow, until He physically returns at the end of history when He will judge us either condemned in our sins or acquitted by His atonement.
The literalist/allegorist dichotomy is a Chinese finger puzzle. It's not real. Sometimes the Bible speaks literally, and sometimes figuratively. What is true is that the Son, Jesus Christ, is in heaven at the right hand of God, the Father, awaiting His sheep while God the Holy Spirit works in time to bring about God's purpose in creation, the redemption of all whom He has loved from before the foundation of the world.
And it seems obvious to me that the more the word of God is preached, the greater the number of Christians in this world (exactly as many as were appointed to eternal life), and thus the more God's grace will fill the planet. How can that be a bad way to view this life?
The question then becomes does Christ's life and death and resurrection have a positive effect on the creation?
Well, since Adams life had a negative effect on creation, it makes perfect sense to believe Christ's life had and has a positive effect on creation.
However, I don't believe Christianity as a whole is growing as fast as Islam.
Islam is a blip. It was contained before and it will be contained again. What is this war if not a clash of theology (though many hesitate to label it as such?)
Overall, do you think Islam will prevail or Christianity?
I believe Islam is the product of Satan. I've read the Book, in the end we win.
Isaiah 19:1:
“So did Jesus come in the flesh in 70 AD or did Jesus not come in the flesh in 70 AD???”
You’ve probably seen this before — compare this judgment against Egypt that was fulfilled:
Isaiah 19
A Prophecy About Egypt
1 An oracle concerning Egypt:
See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud
and is coming to Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them.
Do you think God literally hopped on a cloud and rode down to Egypt and kicked over their idols? Chapter 20 shows how God used the Assyrians to bring His wrath upon Egypt.
Now does this have any similarity to you:
Mark 14:61-62: Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”
62”I am,” said Jesus. “And YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”
BTW, Jesus said “you.”
I guess I should have also said that amils and postmils do not see the "thousand years" as a literal 365,000 day span of time. They see it as a symbol, just like all the other symbols in the book of Revelation.
There is no doubt believing the gospel does nothing but good. However, I don't believe Christianity as a whole is growing as fast as Islam.
Your timeframe could be too limited.
I don't believe the millennial kingdom has occurred so I guess that makes me a premillenialist.
There are some postmils who do not believe we are in the "thousand years" yet, but nevertheless believe it precedes the second coming.
This verse is a confirmation of the Trinity.
Baloney -- this verse is a confirmation just exactly what Preterism is:
"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." [II John 7]
How about you??? Do you claim that Jesus came in 70 AD but not in the flesh???
Do you see Him?
So did Jesus come in the flesh in 70 AD or did Jesus not come in the flesh in 70 AD???
Do you see Him? The coming in AD70 was not a physical coming. It was a temporal judgment against Israel patterned after many of the temporal judgment in the OT prophecies, e.g., Isaiah 13:1,9,10.
you are incapable of such exegetical work.
= = =
1. Sounds like a personal slam, to me.
2. I hope that doesn’t = not willing to mangle Scripture in the Replacementarian Rubber Bible fashion.
WOW. Boggles my mind. That one assertion . . .
either one . . . .
soooooooooooooooo
out of step with Scripture AND History
AND Current trends
MORE THAN SUFFICIENT to leave me wanting to wash with lye soap after getting near Replacementarian theology.
Rubber Bible is inadequate to describe such horrific UNBIBLICAL positions.
Have been prayerfully pondering what root lie(s) from hell are really at the foundation of the REPLACEMENTARIAN DECEPTION.
Would appreciate the END TIMES PING LIST'S INPUT ON THIS . . . especially Darth Vader et al . . .
Reading the above has been accompanied with insights dropped into my spirit along the following lines:
1. There's a subtle but effective slight of hand akin to satan's deception of Eve . . . YOU CAN BE AS GOD!
ESSENTIALLY, MAN is bettering the world and God is not very evident in any dramatic overt ways.
Does NOT sound like the GOD OF THE BIBLE; THE GOD OF THE ANGEL ARMIES I KNOW.
NOR does it sound like the VERY DRAMATIC CLOSING OF HISTORY AS WE'VE KNOWN IT AS OUTLINED IN THE BIBLE. But it sure shunts God aside and gives man hope in a Christianized version of that old secular humanism bit about BETTER LIVING THROUGH OUR OWN BOOTSTRAPS. What an endless set of horrors that has led to!
The globalist puppet masters are carrying that forward with tyrannical plans worse than any in history. God will have them all in derision. The world will be cleansed . . . by fire, this time. GOD'S FIRE. GOD OF THE ANGEL ARMIES.
I think it's enormously telling that the denominations that espouse such REPLACEMENTARIAN OUTRAGEOUSNESS
ARE THE VERY DENOMINATIONS WHICH PRIDE THEMSELVES IN HAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS BUT DENY THE POWER THEREOF--though they'd certainly not put it that way--wrapping it instead in all manner of rationalizations from hell.
2. Satan set out to destroy whomever God favored from Cain and Abel on. He particularly upped the ante when God CHOSE TO BLESS ABRHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB's offspring. This twisting of Scripture provides excuse for treating Jacob's children as yet more "useless eaters" of no more consequence than any other "useless eaters" on the globe. Actually, a LOT more troublesome so we need to treat them particularly horridly is the globalist scheme. QUITE IN KEEPING with satan's schemes throughout history. Of course, the Contrarian Preterist position is utterly blind to these facts.
DEADLY Lies from hell can be that way when wrapped in theological hogwash.
ARE THERE OTHER ROOT LIES FROM HELL functioning as foundation for the REPLACEMENTARIAN DECEPTION?
Nonsense, the verse you are using in Matthew 24 says clearly:
"and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" [Mt 24:30]
You say that this was fulfilled when He came in 70 AD but His coming then was just not in the flesh. Well here is what John says about your confession:
"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God, and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." [I John 4:2,3]
"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." [II John 7]
Trouble is, that's not what the verse says...
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Trouble is, you don't believe what God said...So now you hafta find something which you think might fit...But you can't find it...
So along comes someone and invents a story line, which doesn't line up with anything biblically...And you tell us that you proved something by comparing scripture with scripture...
Trouble with that is, we read the Bible as well...You're not going to bluff us...
And when someone pins you down, you try to be slipperyier than a greased pig on ball bearings...
When Luke 21:27 does actually happen, and it will, EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM, PHYSICALLY...EVEN YOU...
WOW . . . shocking yet again.
Yet again Scripture has to endure being put through the
REPLACEMENTARIAN MANGLING TRANSMORGIFIER
to fit their RUBBER BIBLES
It still boggles my mind that anyone could believe such convoluted egg salad constructions on even fantasies, much less realities.
And folks who consider themselves Born Again? Christians???
THEY believe such goo from hell?
Truly shocking. Stunned yet again. Literally.
Folks really have no idea what is just around the corner.
Let’s see snippets of history from the RUBBER HISTORY BOOK
ANGELS WE HAVE HEARD ON HIGH
. . . well not really . . . those were the bluebirds of happiness whispering sweet ideas in Mary and Elizabeth’s heads during special . . . uh . . . meditations . . . errrr . . . dreams. That’s it.
Shepherds watching their flocks in fields at night ANGELS ANGELS ANGELS A CHORUS OF ANGELS
GLAD TIDINGS OF GREAT JOY.
. . . . not really . . .
Those were the burpings of sheep in a particularly coincidentally harmonious symphony fostered by the prosaic arrangement of pretty flowers theyd eaten earlier.
THREE WISE MEN FROM THE EAST bearing GOLD, FRANKENSENSE AND MYR
. . . . not really . . .
3 semi retired herders with nothing more significant than some stream polished rocks to lay beside an odd babe in a dirty manger.
MOUNT OF TRANSFIGURATION
. . . . not really . . .
Peter was briefly blinded and disoriented by bird drool from the sky while out strolling with The Rabbi . . . in a flash of crazed impetuousness he concocted quite a story for back at the campfire.
THE ASCENSION
. . . . not really . . .
Star Trek Enterprise gave Jesus a lift back to The Father since the Heavenly Elevator was broken and threw in some cloud effects because Captain Kirk knew God had a THING for clouds.
These examples from the REPLACEMENTARIAN RUBBER BIBLE are offered in an effort to help you understand that when the DRAMAS of the end times begin to unfold, the REPLACEMENTARIANS may be falling like flies and in deadly shock in higher percentages because their minds have been so shaped to expect the opposite. They wont have much time to adjust.
God schedules drama well beyond fantasized capacities of a Hollyweed of the year 3001 so Replacementarians think interpretations from the Cro-Magnons. Go figure.
THERE YOU GO AGAIN
Confusing the REPLACEMENTARIANS
with TRUE HISTORY
and
TRUE BIBLE.
You should know they can only handle skim milk.
I hope you don’t EXPECT them to make sense! Have yet to see them make much sense—especially in the prophecy dept.
There are soooooooooooooo many DOZENS if not 100’s of SCRIPTURES—any ONE of which totally neuters their whole pile of fantasies. And they have no clue. Shocking.
Actually, I contend the opposite.
But I’m behind in other tasks.
Do you see Him? The coming in AD70 was not a physical coming.
= = =
Hard to imagine Christians writing such with a straight face then believing it.
But I guess that would explain why the
JEWS DID NOT SEE HIM WHOM THEY HAD PIERCED . . . AND BELIEVE
LOL.
Sigh.
“But you said all creation is under the curse. Arent the righteous part of creation?”
Rom. 8:22-23, For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Notice the “And not only they, but ourselves also,”, the “but” is explained by Paul here:
Gal 3:13, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:”
It’s a whole lot like Jesus said in John 17:15-16, “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.”
We were once under the curse but Jesus became the curse for us, however we still labor because of the curse of creation. He won’t take us out of that until His return. So to answer your oblique question, the creation and its systems can’t progressively get better because we are here since, by election, only those chosen from the foundation of the earth are pardoned from the judgment of the curse that came on all of creation when Adam sinned and that won’t be relieved until the firey renovation.
1. In Communist China . . . as well as in all the globalist documents I've ever read . . . accommodation is outlined with such churches--at least for a time--usually a very long time as witnessed in China. These churches and their REPLACEMENTARIAN, neutered-overtly-DRAMATIC-GOD theology fits Communist/globalist/socialst plans quite handily--particularly in terms of . . . drum roll . . .
MAN is again at the center of control--actually satan is--but man works as a great puppet for satan given that illusion of control.
But if a group or individual talk of God speaking to them directly via Holy Spirit or THE END TIMES or the SECOND COMING--then that's forbidden. That threatens CONTROL and the lies from hell about the wonderful GLOBAL VILLAGE being created . . . by MAN, of course.
2. Holy Spirit over the last decades and even now often warns groups in China and other places when the officials are going to stage a raid and so a meeting is not held or is held elsewhere--sometimes arranged totally and only by Holy Spirit speaking in His still small voice to the individuals HE wants there. That freaks the CONTROL FREAQUES out. AND DEMONSTRATES GOD'S SUPERNATURAL SUKPREME POWER THAT THEY CAN DO NOTHING ABOUT--MUCH AS END TIMES LITERAL PROPHECIES WITH GOD IN CONTROL freak out the Replacementarian perspective, evidently.
3. The globalists, humanists, secularists, Replacementarians all seem genetically allergic and horrified by
ANY
HINT
That there REALLY IS A DRAMATIC POWERFUL ALMIGHTY GOD OF THE ANGEL ARMIES as THE UNrubber Bible calls Him . . . WHO MOVES IN POWER AND MIGHT IN BEHALF OF THOSE WHO LOVE AND OBEY HIM.
Pharoah didn't handle it very well in spite of his God hardened heart.
Old Nebbie ended up eating grass like an animal and finally learned a shred of respect for ALMIGHTY GOD.
The current crop of globalists are a long way from respecting God Almighty even expecting HIM to LOSE at Armageddon! What idiocy.
But the Replacementarians scoff at the literal fulfillment of END TIMES prophecies QUITE IN CHORUS WITH
--THE SECULAR HUMANISTS, ATHEISTS
--SATANISTS
--GLOBALISTS
--HINDUS
--etc.
Just can't happen in their mangled construction on reality.
Stay tuned.
EVERY LAST WORD AND TINY PUNCTUATION POINT WILL BE FULFILLED TO THE LETTER. Some will be vividly literal only. Some vividly literal and symbolic. Some probably in mixtures we can't articulate.
GOD WILL BE MAGNIFIED. GOD'S POWER AND MAJESTY WILL BE DISPLAYED ON THIS GLOBE IN OUR ERA AS NEVER BEFORE IN RECORDED HISTORY AS WE KNOW IT.
THEN
the Replacementarians will have nothing to rebut with.
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