Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
Were those babies "innocent"?
Yes, exactly. Before FR, I had no idea there was anything wrong with Protestant leaders like Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, et al. I saw Osteen a couple of weeks ago on Larry King Alive and just shook my head through the whole thing. Hell is erased. It is too uncomfortable to talk about and doesn't cater to the needs of the congregation. Good grief, what a mistake! Just as you said, Harley, it's no accident that Jesus Himself talked about hell and sin so much. What those in the laity NEED are the facts, not some feel good self esteem message.
Watering down the reality of hell is a disservice to all Christians. I think it lowers the sacrifice Christ made for us because it deemphasizes what He was saving us FROM.
Man can Choose God or NOT to Choose God by free will.
Did man freely crucify Christ? Of course man freely crucified Christ! Christ did not crucify Himself. Thus, man can "choose" or not "choose" God freely
God gave man power only "once" to do anything to Him,and man chose to use their free will to crucify Him.
Man has a free will! Don't you see the error you're making?
Its been a long day for me, so I'm checking out
I wish you peace.
Just like I am a heretic to you, as you so many times have called me and my beliefs
I never called you a heretic. Show me when and where I called you personally a heretic.
I do believe that you implied that I am a heretic when you misread what I said about the iconoclastic council:
To: Missey_Lucy_Goosey
MLG: I suppose you do not include the council of Constantinople, AD 754 in that "inspired" category?
kosta50:St. John od Damascus sucessfully proved that incons were not idolatry. The "council" you are referring to is iconoclastic and it is no wonder that heretics of all shades would consider it an "ecumenical" council.
10,402 posted on 11/04/2007 4:46:47 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
kosta50 assumed that I was calling that council an "ecumencial council", which I did not, and thusly implied very heavily, directed at ME personally, that I was a heretic.
It also removes the Justice from a Just God, and relegates the likes of Adolf Hitler to a peaceful eternal death after passing in the arms of Eva Braun.
Man can Choose God or NOT to Choose God by free will.
That does not answer the question. All you did was make a dogmatic philosphical assertion.
Once again, what makes you THINK or BELIEVE that man born of Adam has a free will to choose God?
I received a message from the RM that it is ok to call a belief heretical, and you can call a church father a heretic, but we cannot call each other names. So, kosta50 is able to call the council of Constantinople or any other council for that matter heretic if it does not conform to his beliefs. You are perfectly capable and within your rights to call his beliefs heretical, but do not call him a heretic. At least this is what I understand from the RM.
Perhaps you should read Sirach 15:14-20 from Douay Rheims....
"14 God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his OWN counsel. 15 He added his commandments and precepts.
16 If thou wilt keep the commandments and perform acceptable fidelity for ever, they shall preserve thee. 17 He hath set water and fire before thee: stretch forth thy hand to which thou wilt. 18 Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall CHOOSE shall be given him: 19 For the wisdom of God is great, and he is strong in power, seeing all men without ceasing. 20 The eyes of the Lord are towards them that fear him, and he knoweth all the work of man.
This tells us that Salvation, a free gift, is ours to accept or reject. God’s sovereignty includes our free will. Our fate is predestined, but not predetermined
Good night!
I wish you a Blessed evening
Yes, I saw that. The point I was making that the implication of "kosta50's" post to me, when he misread what I actually said, when he assumed that I called the iconoclastic council an "ecumenical council", when in fact I did not, was that I was a heretic, as all heretics call the iconoclastic council an ecumenical council. While "kosta50" did not directly call me a heretic, it was a backdoor accusation by implication.
The point is, I find "kosta50's" being offended a shade on the hypocritical side after heavily implying I was a heretic.
Amen, FK. To understand God's true love for us one has to understand what precisely we are saved from and why. But it's not only that. To ignore hell is to deny fundamental principles set forth by the fathers and spoken of directly by our Lord Jesus. It is difficult to repent when you don't understand why you should repent.
Perhaps you should read Sirach 15:14-20 from Douay Rheims....
"14 God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his OWN counsel. 15 He added his commandments and precepts. 16 If thou wilt keep the commandments and perform acceptable fidelity for ever, they shall preserve thee. 17 He hath set water and fire before thee: stretch forth thy hand to which thou wilt. 18 Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall CHOOSE shall be given him: 19 For the wisdom of God is great, and he is strong in power, seeing all men without ceasing. 20 The eyes of the Lord are towards them that fear him, and he knoweth all the work of man.
That does not say that man born of Adam has a free will that he can exercise in seeking after God or with which to choose to believe the Gospel at all.
Try reading the Bible:
John 3:
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Romans 3
5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) 6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written:
“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“ The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Those who have not been "born again", or literally, "regenerated from above" are at enmity with God, do not seek God, nor have the capacity to believe God.
Ephesians 2
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
By nature, those born of Adam are born children of wrath, dead in sin, rejecting God at every point.
It takes God, in His mercy to make one "born again" so that man believes. This tells us that Salvation, a free gift, is ours to accept or reject. God’s sovereignty includes our free will. Our fate is predestined, but not predetermined
Ah, the residue of Aristotelian philosophy which infected Rome through John Cassian.
"Predestined" means, "pre-ordained", by God.
***Our fate is predestined, but not predetermined***
From the Oxford American dictionary:
Predetermine - to decide in advance, to predestine.
Predestine - to destine beforehand, to appoint as if by fate.
Both are the same thing. To predestine is to determine our destiny beforehand. Which is what God does. Our fate is determined (predestined) before the creation of the universe. We cannot change our destiny, our future, otherwise God would not have been able to predestine us.
Is that the one Saint Jerome used -;)
Predestination means only that God knows what we will do, not that we are ‘obliged’ to do it.salvation depends simultaneously to God and to man, absolutely to God, without whose Spirit there is no grace and illumination, and also absolutely to man, without whose free will God can do nothing to save him..
Remember ,God is outside of time and not bound by it
Perhaps Dear Kosta or Kolo can help with the original Greek?
Good grief,MLS,What do you think the Scriptures are referring to in Sirach 15: 14-20 ? They are speaking about mankind.
Here it is again...
“14 God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his OWN counsel. 15 He added his commandments and precepts. 16 If thou wilt keep the commandments and perform acceptable fidelity for ever, they shall preserve thee. 17 He hath set water and fire before thee: stretch forth thy hand to which thou wilt. 18 Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall CHOOSE shall be given him: 19 For the wisdom of God is great, and he is strong in power, seeing all men without ceasing. 20 The eyes of the Lord are towards them that fear him, and he knoweth all the work of man.
MLS, are you one of those people who think that Eve had sex with satan and bore Cain? You Know, The arnold murray Shepherd Chapel followers.
Is so. that would explain your thinking
Good Night! Really, this time for sure.
***Predestination means only that God knows what we will do, not that we are ‘obliged’ to do it.***
No, predestine means we are destined to do it. Period. It is predetermined what will come about. Not what might come about.
If something is predestined by God, it will be done. History was written before God said “Let there be light.”
***Is that the one Saint Jerome used -;)***
I don’t know about St. Jerome, but St. Irishtenor uses it :>)
***Good grief,MLS,What do you think the Scriptures are referring to in Sirach 15: 14-20 ? ***
My Bible doesn’t have Sirach 15. Is that OT or NT?
Wrong, it means to "pre-ordain" by Divine appintment.
Acts 13:48
Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
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