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To: Missey_Lucy_Goosey
“”Once again, what makes you THINK or BELIEVE that man born of Adam has a free will to choose God?””

Perhaps you should read Sirach 15:14-20 from Douay Rheims....

"14 God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his OWN counsel. 15 He added his commandments and precepts.
16 If thou wilt keep the commandments and perform acceptable fidelity for ever, they shall preserve thee. 17 He hath set water and fire before thee: stretch forth thy hand to which thou wilt. 18 Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall CHOOSE shall be given him: 19 For the wisdom of God is great, and he is strong in power, seeing all men without ceasing. 20 The eyes of the Lord are towards them that fear him, and he knoweth all the work of man.

This tells us that Salvation, a free gift, is ours to accept or reject. God’s sovereignty includes our free will. Our fate is predestined, but not predetermined

Good night!
I wish you a Blessed evening

10,468 posted on 11/05/2007 4:45:45 PM PST by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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To: stfassisi
“”Once again, what makes you THINK or BELIEVE that man born of Adam has a free will to choose God?””

Perhaps you should read Sirach 15:14-20 from Douay Rheims....

"14 God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his OWN counsel. 15 He added his commandments and precepts. 16 If thou wilt keep the commandments and perform acceptable fidelity for ever, they shall preserve thee. 17 He hath set water and fire before thee: stretch forth thy hand to which thou wilt. 18 Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall CHOOSE shall be given him: 19 For the wisdom of God is great, and he is strong in power, seeing all men without ceasing. 20 The eyes of the Lord are towards them that fear him, and he knoweth all the work of man.

That does not say that man born of Adam has a free will that he can exercise in seeking after God or with which to choose to believe the Gospel at all.

Try reading the Bible:

John 3:

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Romans 3

5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) 6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?

7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“ The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Romans 8

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Those who have not been "born again", or literally, "regenerated from above" are at enmity with God, do not seek God, nor have the capacity to believe God.

Ephesians 2

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

By nature, those born of Adam are born children of wrath, dead in sin, rejecting God at every point.

It takes God, in His mercy to make one "born again" so that man believes. This tells us that Salvation, a free gift, is ours to accept or reject. God’s sovereignty includes our free will. Our fate is predestined, but not predetermined

10,471 posted on 11/05/2007 5:23:44 PM PST by Missey_Lucy_Goosey
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To: stfassisi
This tells us that Salvation, a free gift, is ours to accept or reject. God’s sovereignty includes our free will. Our fate is predestined, but not predetermined.

Ah, the residue of Aristotelian philosophy which infected Rome through John Cassian.

"Predestined" means, "pre-ordained", by God.

10,472 posted on 11/05/2007 5:26:50 PM PST by Missey_Lucy_Goosey
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To: stfassisi

***Our fate is predestined, but not predetermined***

From the Oxford American dictionary:
Predetermine - to decide in advance, to predestine.
Predestine - to destine beforehand, to appoint as if by fate.

Both are the same thing. To predestine is to determine our destiny beforehand. Which is what God does. Our fate is determined (predestined) before the creation of the universe. We cannot change our destiny, our future, otherwise God would not have been able to predestine us.


10,474 posted on 11/05/2007 5:55:52 PM PST by irishtenor (How much good could a Hindu do, if a Hindu could do good?)
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