Posted on 07/05/2007 3:00:33 AM PDT by Gamecock
The following draws from the book Is the Mormon My Brother by apologist James White. Earlier this year, Paul Kaiser reprinted a Worldview article titled 10 Mormonism Facts which generated a myriad of responses from visitors who stated that Mormons were being misrepresented and are simply our brothers & sisters in the Body of Christ. Let’s look at what Dr. White presents using LDS resources:
The First Vision
Without question the key revelation in Mormon Scripture regarding the nature of God is to be found in what is known as the First Vision of Joseph Smith. The vision itself is fundamental to all of LDS theology. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie described the vision:
That glorious theophany which took place in the spring of 1820 and which marked the opening of the dispensation of the fullness of times is called the First Vision. It is rated as first both from the standpoint of time and of pre-eminent importance. In it Joseph Smith saw and conversed with the Father and the Son, both of which exalted personages were personally present before him as he lay enwrapped in the Spirit and overshadowed by the Holy Ghost.
This transcendent vision was the beginning of latter day revelation; it marked the opening of the heavens after the long night of apostate darkness; with it was ushered in the great era of restoration, the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21.) Through it the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens, and because of it the truth about those Beings whom it is life eternal to know began again to be taught among men. (John 17:3.) With this vision came the call of that Prophet who, save Jesus only, was destined to do more for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. (D. & C. 135:3.) This vision was the most important event that had taken place in all world history from the day of Christ’s ministry to the glorious hour when it occurred.(1)
And Mormon Prophet Ezra Taft Benson said,
Joseph Smith, a prophet of God, restored the knowledge of God. Joseph’s first vision clearly revealed that the Father and Son are separate personages, having bodies as tangible as mans. Later it was also revealed that the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, separate and distinct from the personalities of the Father and the Son. (See D&C 130:22.) This all-important truth shocked the world even though sustained by the Bible. (2)
How is it that the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens and the knowledge of God was restored by this one vision? While the story is as familiar to Mormons as John 3:16 is to Christians, we present Joseph Smith’s own recounting of the story in full, taken from the LDS Scriptures (and hence carrying canonical authority). However, we note that the account that appears in the LDS Scriptures was written in 1838, eighteen years after the events described:
14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.
15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon bysome power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)–and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong;(3) and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, Never mind, all is well I am well enough off. I then said to my mother, I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true. It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy? (Joseph Smith History 1:14-20).
What does this vision, recorded in LDS Scripture, teach concerning God? First and foremost, it presents to us the concept of a plurality of gods. This arises from the fact that God the Father is a separate and distinct physical entity from Jesus Christ, His Son. God the Father is possessed of a physical body, as is the Son. This is why McConkie can claim the creeds of Christendom were smashed to smithereens, for the vision has always been interpreted by the LDS leadership to teach that God the Father is a separate and distinct person and being from the Son. The unity of Being that is central to Christian theology is completely denied by Joseph Smith in the First Vision. Hence, you have one God, the Father, directing Smith to another God, the Son.
While it is not our intention to critique these teachings at this point, it should be noted that there are a number of problems with the First Vision, and with the entire development of the LDS concept of God as well. As we noted, this version of the First Vision was not written until 1838. Previous versions, however, differed in substantial details from this final and official account. Most significantly, the presence of both the Father and the Son as separate and distinct gods is not a part of the earlier accounts.(4)
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(1) Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine,2nd ed., rev. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), pp. 284-285, LDSCL.
(2) Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988), p. 4, LDSCL. On page 101 of the same book, we read this strong statement:
The first vision of the Prophet Joseph Smith is bedrock theology to the Church. The adversary knows this and has attacked Joseph Smith’s credibility from the day he announced the visitation of the Father and the Son. You should always bear testimony to thetruth of the First Vision. Joseph Smith did see the Father and the Son. They conversed with him as he said they did. Any leader who, without reservation, cannot declare his testimony that God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith can never be a true leader, a true shepherd. If we do not accept this truth if we have not received a witness about this great revelationwe cannot inspire faith in those whom we lead.
(3) One of Mormonism’s leading scholars, James Talmage (and a General Authority), said the following in the General Conference of April, 1920:
This Church, therefore, from its beginning, has been unique, for the organization of the Church was forecasted in this declaration that at the time of Joseph Smiths first vision there was no Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth; and I do not see why people should take issue with us for making that statement (CR1920Apr:103).
(4) I noted a number of the historical problems with Mormonism in Letters to a Mormon Elder, pp. 88-106. For a fuller treatment of this issue, see H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism (Salt Lake: Smith Research Associates, 1994), pp.1-41, and Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? (Salt Lake City: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1982), pp. 143-162.
I don’t think protestants believe Mary was an “eternal virgin.” Some maybe, but certainly not most.
Mormon’s used to teach that God had physical relations with Mary in order to impregnate her either by insemination or otherwise.
Mormonism also taught that God had many wives and that celestial polygamy was the norm. I assumed that pointed stongly to the idea that Mary was one of God’s wives. It would be better than believing Mary was one of God’s daughters wouldn’t it?
Has the Church distanced themselves from a physical impregnation of Mary.
Those are very different questions. For me, the answer is, unless they are willing to affirm the Nicene and Chalcedonian creeds, they are not.
That's not a judgment on them as neighbors, co-workers, or Presidents. In point of fact, I am seriously considering supporting Romney in the primaries. But I do so with the knowledge that he isn't "Christian" as historic, orthodox Christianity defines the term.
AC5691:” that Mary was an eternal virgin and was, along with Jesus, the only person on Earth to have never sinned.”
I wonder which group has more true Christians, the Mormon Church or the Roman Catholic Church?
Even though the RC church has deified Mary and made an idol of her, I still think they win hands down.
Personally, I think they both border on heresy and cultism. One is cannibalistic and iconic while the other is polytheistic...
Thanks. By "trinitarian formula" I assume you mean baptizing "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Matthew 28:19)
I am told that not all Christians practice baptism by water. Is baptism required to become a Christian?
As for the creeds, I have several questions:
(1) Which version of each creed is definitive?
(2) The Nicene Creed dates from the fourth century; the Athanasian Creed is even later. What about those who lived before these creeds were formulated? Would they be considered Christians in your view?
(3) I am told that the Eastern Orthodox do not formally recognize either the Apostles' Creed or the Athanasian Creed. (Someone please correct me if I am wrong.) Are they Christians?
It sounds to me that it depends on who is the defining authority when it comes to the definition of a Christian.
What is your definition of Christian?
None and this is why "The intent of this thread is not to determine if a Mormon should be president, or if you want one as a next door neighbor, but are they Christian?"
But they will not be Mormons when they die if they are elect..
Umm Marys eternal Chasity is *not* a cornerstone of Christianity. To believe she was chased until death or only until after the birth of Christ is not a dividing line
There is more scriptural evidence for her *not* being chased her whole life then her dying without knowing her husband.
Matthew 1:
21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us). 24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him: he took his wife, 25 but knew her not **until** she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.
Ill take my Shot at it: One God in three distinct persons together one God head and eternal. Christ, one of the Godhead, was sent to serve the punishment for our sins and this grace *alone* accounts for salvation. Once you step outside of this you're in trouble... Though I am no theologian so Im sure my post can be picked apart..
Perhaps you can enlighten us as to what parts you dont believe..
It appears from all these threads that "Christians" are those that believe extra-Biblical creeds, and Mormons are not Christians because they teach stuff that is not in the Bible. How in the world they can say that with a straight face is beyond me. They will say if you don't believe in the creeds then you are not Christian, then go a quote from Rev that you cannot add to the Bible, and therefore Mormons are evil.
Your asking which version of a creed is definitive is the wrong question. The question should be "why are you teaching something that is not in the Bible?" After all, that is the ruler used to measure Mormons.
I think if we stuck to just the Bible, we would find that Mormons are very close to what is in there, and often far closer than creed-beliving "Christians."
N3WBI3:”Umm Marys eternal Chasity is *not* a cornerstone of Christianity. To believe she was chased until death or only until after the birth of Christ is not a dividing line
There is more scriptural evidence for her *not* being chased her whole life then her dying without knowing her husband.”
So who is chasing whom in the above cases? Perhaps it was chastity you were implying? (chaste).
The church generally does not speculate on the specific how of what happened. Some things are left to the mysteries which will be revealed in the proper time. But even if a church authority did so speculate on the physical how, that is a long ways from your speculation that Mary was Christ’s spiritual mother and was one of God’s wives. The idea that one lives a mortal life more than once is contrary to church teachings.
So Mary was God’s spiritual offspring through one of His Celestial wives and he begat Jesus through her. I get it, now....hmmmmm
I agree with you about the real question. (See my Post #17.)
Thus far, only a few posters have shown any interest in defining Christian. It seems to me that until that is done, we cannot possibly decide who is or is not a Christian.
yes, it was... thank you..
Logo,
This is not true in the process of defining something you may come across a property which can be used in an exclusionary way. In this case the Mormon penchant for polytheism (Where by they themselves can become a God) excludes them from Christianity. The Fact they limit Gods power by saying there are other Gods of other planets also excludes them..
points of Heresy are rather easy to spot when they are that bad..
Yet it is the Creedians who presume to sit in judgement as to whether members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are actually "Christians."
Even if I did agree with your characterization of our beliefs (which I most certainly do not), it misses the point.
You cannot reasonably call something a heresy unless you have some definition of orthodoxy.
Likewise, you cannot say Mormons are not Christians unless you can say what beliefs, practices, or characteristics define a Christian. How do you define Christian?
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