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Our Mormon Brothers?
Reformed Evangelist ^ | May 14th, 2007 | Jeff Fuller

Posted on 07/05/2007 3:00:33 AM PDT by Gamecock

Mormon Evangelists

The following draws from the book Is the Mormon My Brother by apologist James White. Earlier this year, Paul Kaiser reprinted a Worldview article titled 10 Mormonism Facts which generated a myriad of responses from visitors who stated that Mormons were being misrepresented and are simply our brothers & sisters in the Body of Christ. Let’s look at what Dr. White presents using LDS resources:

The First Vision

Without question the key revelation in Mormon Scripture regarding the nature of God is to be found in what is known as the First Vision of Joseph Smith. The vision itself is fundamental to all of LDS theology. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie described the vision:

That glorious theophany which took place in the spring of 1820 and which marked the opening of the dispensation of the fullness of times is called the First Vision. It is rated as first both from the standpoint of time and of pre-eminent importance. In it Joseph Smith saw and conversed with the Father and the Son, both of which exalted personages were personally present before him as he lay enwrapped in the Spirit and overshadowed by the Holy Ghost.

This transcendent vision was the beginning of latter day revelation; it marked the opening of the heavens after the long night of apostate darkness; with it was ushered in the great era of restoration, the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21.) Through it the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens, and because of it the truth about those Beings whom it is life eternal to know began again to be taught among men. (John 17:3.) With this vision came the call of that Prophet who, save Jesus only, was destined to do more for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. (D. & C. 135:3.) This vision was the most important event that had taken place in all world history from the day of Christ’s ministry to the glorious hour when it occurred.(1)

And Mormon Prophet Ezra Taft Benson said,

Joseph Smith, a prophet of God, restored the knowledge of God. Joseph’s first vision clearly revealed that the Father and Son are separate personages, having bodies as tangible as mans. Later it was also revealed that the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit, separate and distinct from the personalities of the Father and the Son. (See D&C 130:22.) This all-important truth shocked the world even though sustained by the Bible. (2)

How is it that the creeds of Christendom were shattered to smithereens and the knowledge of God was restored by this one vision? While the story is as familiar to Mormons as John 3:16 is to Christians, we present Joseph Smith’s own recounting of the story in full, taken from the LDS Scriptures (and hence carrying canonical authority). However, we note that the account that appears in the LDS Scriptures was written in 1838, eighteen years after the events described:

14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.

15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon bysome power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

16 But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)–and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong;(3) and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, Never mind, all is well I am well enough off. I then said to my mother, I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true. It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy? (Joseph Smith History 1:14-20).

What does this vision, recorded in LDS Scripture, teach concerning God? First and foremost, it presents to us the concept of a plurality of gods. This arises from the fact that God the Father is a separate and distinct physical entity from Jesus Christ, His Son. God the Father is possessed of a physical body, as is the Son. This is why McConkie can claim the creeds of Christendom were smashed to smithereens, for the vision has always been interpreted by the LDS leadership to teach that God the Father is a separate and distinct person and being from the Son. The unity of Being that is central to Christian theology is completely denied by Joseph Smith in the First Vision. Hence, you have one God, the Father, directing Smith to another God, the Son.

While it is not our intention to critique these teachings at this point, it should be noted that there are a number of problems with the First Vision, and with the entire development of the LDS concept of God as well. As we noted, this version of the First Vision was not written until 1838. Previous versions, however, differed in substantial details from this final and official account. Most significantly, the presence of both the Father and the Son as separate and distinct gods is not a part of the earlier accounts.(4)

————————————————-

(1) Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine,2nd ed., rev. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), pp. 284-285, LDSCL.

(2) Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1988), p. 4, LDSCL. On page 101 of the same book, we read this strong statement:

The first vision of the Prophet Joseph Smith is bedrock theology to the Church. The adversary knows this and has attacked Joseph Smith’s credibility from the day he announced the visitation of the Father and the Son. You should always bear testimony to thetruth of the First Vision. Joseph Smith did see the Father and the Son. They conversed with him as he said they did. Any leader who, without reservation, cannot declare his testimony that God and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith can never be a true leader, a true shepherd. If we do not accept this truth if we have not received a witness about this great revelationwe cannot inspire faith in those whom we lead.

(3) One of Mormonism’s leading scholars, James Talmage (and a General Authority), said the following in the General Conference of April, 1920:

This Church, therefore, from its beginning, has been unique, for the organization of the Church was forecasted in this declaration that at the time of Joseph Smiths first vision there was no Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth; and I do not see why people should take issue with us for making that statement (CR1920Apr:103).

(4) I noted a number of the historical problems with Mormonism in Letters to a Mormon Elder, pp. 88-106. For a fuller treatment of this issue, see H. Michael Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism (Salt Lake: Smith Research Associates, 1994), pp.1-41, and Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? (Salt Lake City: Utah Lighthouse Ministry, 1982), pp. 143-162.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: apologetics; boggsforgovernor; brothers; christianity; lds; mormon; mormonism; orthodoxy
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To: colorcountry

You should read ALL of it. Is your faith prompting you to do good works or is it prompting you to attack others?


501 posted on 07/09/2007 5:11:55 PM PDT by Old Mountain man (Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice!)
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To: MHGinTN
>>In more than half the Levites of Ashkenazi descent.

Once again, the BoM people's do not claim Levirate descent so your evidence is a straw man argument.

502 posted on 07/09/2007 5:23:52 PM PDT by Rameumptom (Gen X= they killed 1 in 4 of us)
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To: Degaston
Does DNA evidence refute the Book of Mormon?

Table of Contents

Dr. Michael Whiting on the DNA ControversyDr. Michael F. Whiting, a prominent geneticist whose work has received widespread attention (it was featured as the cover story in cover article in Nature in mid-January 2003), recently gave a lecture at BYU entitled, "Does DNA Evidence Refute the Authenticity of the Book of Mormon?: Responding to the Critics." Please watch the video presentation.

He also has an excellent article, "DNA and the Book of Mormon: A Phylogenetic Perspective" in the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, Nov. 2003.)

Short Summary

Introduction: The DNA Challenge for the Book of Mormon What Does the Book of Mormon Claim?

"Others in the Land": Not a New Position!

What is a Lamanite?

Asiatic Origins Taught by the Book of Mormon?

What Does DNA Evidence Show?

Enter Haplogroup X

Discovery of Haplogroup X in Siberia

Throwing out the Pearl with the Clamshell: The Likelihood of Discarding the Most Interesting Evidence

Uncertainty in Dating a Haplotype

An Inflated Mutation Rate? Perhaps a Critical Problem

Other Problems in mtDNA Analysis

Could Lehi's Genes Vanish Without a Trace?

The Success of DNA Analysis in Tracking Jewish Ancestry:

More Questions for the Book of Mormon

What is "Jewish DNA" anyway? Is It Really Absent in Native Americans?

An Ancient Melting Pot

HLA Genes: Possible Evidence for Transoceanic Migrations to the Americas

The Mathematics of Ancestry: Lehi as a Common Ancestor Squaring All the Evidence

Literature Cited

Other Recent News

Other Resources and Links

503 posted on 07/09/2007 5:32:23 PM PDT by Rameumptom (Gen X= they killed 1 in 4 of us)
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To: Rameumptom

You raised the Ashkenazi, I didn’t. You attributing them to me as a strawman is so absurd I shall now bid you adieu on this thread too.


504 posted on 07/09/2007 5:33:26 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: DelphiUser; MHGinTN

Oh dear was MHG a bad little gnome
using naughty words on you?

505 posted on 07/09/2007 6:23:31 PM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu

Nah, I referred to him as a poumous little nettle, but more colorfully.


506 posted on 07/09/2007 6:40:22 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: Rameumptom

Dr. Michael Whiting does NOT officially speak for the Mormon church in this matter or any other. I’ve read this publication of his and frankly it is full of holes. And this publication of Whiting’s was not made in a credible peer-reviewed mainstream academic journal.

The matter is quite simple. The unique m-DNA and y-ch genetic markers found in Mongols/Siberians are generally found in the Native Americans. The unique m-DNA and y-ch genetic markers found in Jews are generally found in the Lemba tribe of Africa. And the scientists in linguistics, anthropology and archaelogy have been in full consensus agreement that the Book of Mormon story timeline is untenable for anywhere in Mesoamerica. And not one shred of credible evidence has been found for the Nephite/Lamanite civilization(s).

I wish just as much as you that the Book of Mormon could be true. Unfortunately the truth is very humbling to accept. I suppose that I could’ve been obstinate and stiffneckedly full of pride when I made this unfortunate discovery. But I couldn’t bear the thought of having to face my children in the years ahead with questions of “why didn’t you tell us daddy”. So I decided to be honest with everyone that I no longer believe in the stories of Joseph Smith; and for just as good reason as why I don’t believe in the stories of the Flat Earth Society.

Maybe someday you too will come down from your Zoramite Rameumptom and accept the honest truth.


507 posted on 07/09/2007 6:55:46 PM PDT by Degaston
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To: restornu
Oh dear was MHG a bad little gnome using naughty words on you?

He broke my Ego, and I want a new one!


508 posted on 07/09/2007 9:25:16 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: DelphiUser
"Your interpretation of what I said is different then your interpretation of what he said, that does not make it so."

(Matthew 22:30-a)

"At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage;..."

Mormons see: "There will be no marriage ceremonies," so if you get hitched up just right here on earth, you're set for eternity.

Everyone else sees: "There will be no couples." Taken in context, (Matthew 22:25-30), this is the correct interpretation.

(Matthew 22:30-b)

"... they will be like the angels in heaven."

As far as I know, only the apocryphal book of Enoch, ("Ethiopian Enoch" 7:2 Link), describes angels partaking in marital relations. If you believe in that work, keep reading. None of those angels resides in Heaven; they are severely punished.

So, we can conclude with certainty that neither angels in Heaven or us when we join them will be married to or coupling with anything, let alone producing offspring.

509 posted on 07/10/2007 5:58:32 AM PDT by Enosh (†)
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To: Rameumptom
Surprised you've never heard of Jim Thrope.....For his time, he was a tremendous athlete.

I believe Thrope was Sac & Fox...mostly.

Yes, I live in OK...Like Thrope I had great aunts and uncles that went to Indian Schools..and that ended up working at them also. Mostly at Chilocco Indian School...North of Ponca City, OK.

FWIW-

510 posted on 07/10/2007 6:23:29 AM PDT by Osage Orange (“To call illegal aliens, undocumented workers, is like calling drug dealers unlicensed pharmacists.”)
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To: Osage Orange

My family was friends with Stan Snake A Ponca Indian (and Mormon) from Oklahoma. He recorded an album of his music out at BYU and was involved with the Lamanite Generation out there. He carved Flutes. He passed away a few years back from health problems. Early 1990’s I think.


511 posted on 07/10/2007 6:31:39 AM PDT by Rameumptom (Gen X= they killed 1 in 4 of us)
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To: DelphiUser
Absolutely not, besides judgment day has not happened yet, so they are not yet on the path to being Gods they who will be so judged are waiting judgment.
 
This sounds SO familiar...
 
Genesis 3:5    "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God,  knowing good and evil."
 

 
Your whole life is judged, but there is no sin save Murder and denying the Holy Ghost which will not be swallowed up in baptism ,and sincere repentance (David is a good example here.)
 
I guess this MURDER thing is something that got left out in the 1800 years between Christ and Joseph?
 
Matthew 12:31-32
 31.  And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
 32.  Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
 

Mark 3:28-29
 28.  I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them.
 29.  But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
 

Luke 12:10
   And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

 

 
Yes, and no (sorry, it's the best I can do) if you are truly converted, there will be much repenting for you to do in the Spirit world while you await judgment there, Repenting there is harder than here, so do it here.
 
Oh??
 
Why?

512 posted on 07/10/2007 6:44:08 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DelphiUser
This study has demonstrated the astonishing internal consistency of the Latter-day Scriptures with the Bible

Yup...

plagiarism will tend to do that!

513 posted on 07/10/2007 6:45:53 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Osage Orange; Religion Moderator
If THAT was a personal attack....I'm Jim Thorpe.

WhatEVER it was; it's now gone.

I cannot veiw it and see what was so bad.

Seeing just one side of the conflict; it appears that PP had something to do with it.

514 posted on 07/10/2007 6:49:15 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DelphiUser
Hidded? Hidded? ROTFLOL! So much for intellectual conversation.
 
 
NITPICKER alert!!!

515 posted on 07/10/2007 6:51:42 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: colorcountry
So my intellect is judged upon a typo.....just wait, for with what judgement you judge, you shall be judged. I've seen your typing and it ain't perfect....LOL

It appears that the waiting is over!

516 posted on 07/10/2007 6:53:11 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Rameumptom
Given your belief in the Greek Philosophy of subordinationism and homouosis - one subtance, I can understand you geting confused about when someone is a seperate person, But in reality we are two seperate FReepers.

Yeah!!

What he said!!

--MormonDude(it's ALL Greek to me!)

517 posted on 07/10/2007 6:55:28 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Rameumptom
Nice reference to the Haun's Mill massacre when a so-called "Christian" shot an 8 year old Mormon boy in the head.

You are welcome! (I think)

I get my ideas from the Palestinian's who sob and wail, carrying their dead children, who just happened to be caught(?) in the crossfire with the evil Joose!

518 posted on 07/10/2007 6:58:12 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Rameumptom
Nice reference to the Haun's Mill massacre when a so-called "Christian" shot an 8 year old Mormon boy in the head.

In 1864, Chivington said, "NITS MAKE LICE" in reference to the Indian wars...

519 posted on 07/10/2007 7:05:23 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Rameumptom
 He painted me a picture of Chief Sitting Bull (Lakota) that I keep in my office.
 
Interest thing about Lakota's; they tend to KNOW their history MUCH better than the rest of the US citizens!
 
 
 
The Mormon who complained too much about the loss of a beaten up old cow;  http://www.lakotawritings.com/Little_Bighorn001.htm
 
 
 
 

520 posted on 07/10/2007 7:06:21 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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